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Old 06-04-2007, 10:23 AM   #241
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Most on this board will only support a plan if it has little or no out of pocket responsibility for recipients. I have posted some ideas about how we might be able to make a nationalized catastrophic plan work well, but have received more ciriticism on that than thoughful conversation.
That isnt accurate and besides, I don’t think anyone wants you to be our torch bearer anyway….I did a poll awhile back and most respondents wanted consumer driven health care….
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:26 AM   #242
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Most on this board will only support a plan if it has little or no out of pocket responsibility for recipients.
I, for one, do not fall into this group...
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Polled? or guess?
Old 06-04-2007, 10:32 AM   #243
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Polled? or guess?

<<Most on this board will only support a plan if it has little or no out of pocket responsibility for recipients. >>

And you know this because you've taken a poll...? Or how?

I know I don't agree.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:45 AM   #244
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That isnt accurate and besides, I don’t think anyone wants you to be our torch bearer anyway….I did a poll awhile back and most respondents wanted consumer driven health care….

Cool! I didn't know that! I guess I should have said, most involved on this thread seem to be opposed to my thoughts about combining a nationalized catastrophic plan with some kind of consumer-driven health account. I'm not trying to be a torch bearer. What's wrong with putting some ideas out there?

I don't know how to do one of those voting thingys on this site. But, I'd love to start one if I could figure out how to do it.
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Old 06-04-2007, 11:48 AM   #245
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I dont think anyone said anything like that either.

However I think most would agree that the definition of "catastrophic" would have to include preventative care, reasonable drug coverage, and nobody should have to decide whether to eat or take their kid to the pediatrician.


The objections, as far as I can tell, center around your gloom and doom FUD predictions for nationalized health care. I dont think they're realistic, based on any solid data, or in tune with what 98.7% of the rest of the population feels.
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Old 06-04-2007, 11:59 AM   #246
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I totally agree that preventive care should be included as all of my suggestions have indicated.

How much out of pocket do you think would be "fair" for a person to have to pay (taxes, premiums and deductibles combined)? Prescription drug coverage accounts for large portion of healthcare costs. A plan is not "catastrophic" if it includes first dollar coverage for prescriptions.

Sorry about my gloom and doom predictions, but I really don't trust the government to be thoughtful about the usage of tax dollars. I think it would be more likely that they would be wasteful with the money.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:03 PM   #247
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And I dont trust the existing system to provide cost effective coverage for all americans. Its currently covering all americans, just doing so in an incredibly cost ineffective manner with no preventative care for about 25% of them.

I dont trust the government to fix bureaucracy problems and cost problems either.

But like I've said...we've seen the starting quarterback and he sucks. Lets try the other guy and see how that goes. He might be Tom Brady. Or he might be Cleo Lemon.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:14 PM   #248
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And I dont trust the existing system to provide cost effective coverage for all americans. Its currently covering all americans, just doing so in an incredibly cost ineffective manner with no preventative care for about 25% of them.

I dont trust the government to fix bureaucracy problems and cost problems either.

But like I've said...we've seen the starting quarterback and he sucks. Lets try the other guy and see how that goes. He might be Tom Brady. Or he might be Cleo Lemon.
See, I disagree with your opinions on the the starting quarterback - He implemented HSAs, and I think that's a great start! Granted, there's a lot more to be done, but the concept of consumer-driven care is now starting to have a positive impact on inflation. It just takes TIME.
The next guy (Hillary Clinton or Obama) IMO, is more likey to wipe out all of Bush's progress with HSAs and implement a Canadian-Style system instead.

I think many people have not been willing to give the concept of consumer-driven care a try. I think HSAs have done a tremendous job of helping to flatten renewal inflation rates, particularly in the group realm. In Colorado, we've seen renewals flatten over the past two years, and have been able to help most of our group clients renew at rates not much higher than last year's. Additionally, all of the HSA plans we have sold have INCLUDED preventive care not subject to the deductible.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:53 PM   #249
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47 million americans without insurance disagree.

The doctors for the 200M that are overweight and have a bunch of other health problems from the lack of effective preventative care do too.

This system sucks. Sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks. And it wastes a trillion dollars while sucking.

I'm not the least bit interested in what which candidate says right now. Any of that is designed to get them elected and bears no resemblance to what they might actually do, if anything.
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:56 PM   #250
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I'm not saying it's a given, I just think it's very important to take the possibility into consideration...that offering an unlimited "Medicare for All" type system, similar to Canada, could have an impact on the unemployment rates as taxes become a financial burden on big employers.
This is why I would be much more likely to support a national plan that requires at least SOME out of pocket responsibility rather than one that has little or no out of pocket responsibility....because when virtually no limits are placed on recipients of services, then there are virtually no limits on how much taxes may need to be collected down the line to pay for the unlimited demand.

The USA has a very different culture than many other countries. If taxes get to a point that large corporations have to cut back, there may not be other places for people to go for employment...jobs could become scarce. I think a lot of people fail to think about consequences like that.

What tax rate sounds good to you? What amount of money do you think would resolve the problems here? Germany takes over 50% of income for individuals without families...should we do the same?...if we do, what kind of impact might that have on the economy?

You're missing a very important fact, perhaps you didn't know this:

Under universal healthcare systems like in Canada & Europe, healthcare coverage and employment status are unrelated, as they should be. Employers are not responsible for providing health coverage for their employees. Why should they? You're covered for life regardless of your employment status.

In the US, healthcare is used as a way to discipline the work force and keep them working, because they're told that without health insurance their home and life's savings are at risk if they get sick. It is the ultimate blackmail perpetrated on a nation.



...
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Old 06-04-2007, 12:59 PM   #251
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47 million americans without insurance
I'm not the least bit interested in what which candidate says right now. Any of that is designed to get them elected and bears no resemblance to what they might actually do, if anything.
That's what I am afraid of.
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Old 06-04-2007, 01:02 PM   #252
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You're missing a very important fact, perhaps you didn't know this:

Under universal healthcare systems like in Canada & Europe, healthcare coverage and employment status are unrelated, as they should be. Employers are not responsible for providing health coverage for their employees. Why should they? You're covered for life regardless of your employment status.

In the US, healthcare is used as a way to discipline the work force and keep them working, because they're told that without health insurance their home and life's savings are at risk if they get sick. It is the ultimate blackmail perpetrated in a nation.

...
That's why I have repeatedly argued that we need to disassociate healthcare from employment. Originally, it got setup that way, because the government placed wage controls on employers, so the only way employers could attract workers and compete for labor was to be able to offer health insurance as a benefit....this became a cultural norm in our country...a HUGE mistake that is part of the reason we are in this boat as it is!
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Old 06-04-2007, 01:10 PM   #253
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This is how England is going to handle reducing cost of ALL Government Paid Surgery that is required. Wonder how that would go over in the US -- smoke within 4 weeks of the surgery and YOU pay Government doesn't. So much for FREE health care for some smokers. Good intentions but......

Smokers told to quit or surgery will be refused | the Daily Mail
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Old 06-04-2007, 01:16 PM   #254
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Actually the article says that smokers will still be treated for free, but they may have to wait longer...and this applies only to non urgent surgeries.

Seems like a fine idea to me: if you do something thats bad for you that you may choose to stop and elect not to, you wait behind people who are taking better care of themselves.
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Old 06-04-2007, 01:30 PM   #255
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Title is a bit deceiving. Closer reading by CFB reveals the details. Really a good intention as I would think if one could quit for 4 weeks they should be able to continue or at least it would be a step towards quitting entirely.
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:06 PM   #256
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In the US, healthcare is used as a way to discipline the work force and keep them working, because they're told that without health insurance their home and life's savings are at risk if they get sick. It is the ultimate blackmail perpetrated on a nation.
Funny Free @ 49. That is my govt conspiracy theory --- glad to know I am not the only one who thinks up with those "strange" ideas.
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:57 PM   #257
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Funny Free @ 49. That is my govt conspiracy theory --- glad to know I am not the only one who thinks up with those "strange" ideas.
Labor force discipline lowers wages and keeps Americans working for the capitalist system. But work should be voluntary, not enforced. Work makes you free -- "Arbeit macht frei"

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Old 06-04-2007, 03:52 PM   #258
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The quickest way to a solution of the heath insurance problem is to require our legislators to buy insurance on the individual market.
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Old 06-04-2007, 03:59 PM   #259
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The quickest way to a solution of the heath insurance problem is to require our legislators to buy insurance on the individual market.
I watched part of the debate, and once again I was disappointed that no one asked the candidates what they thought about Wyden's plan. None of the incomplete plans they are talking about seem to be as well thought out or cover as many people as Wyden's plan, IMO.
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Old 06-04-2007, 04:03 PM   #260
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I agree. Though this thread was supposed to be about Obama's plan, no one really discussed it. It has a lot of problems, especially because it does not address adverse selection by requiring people to have insurance. Wyden's plan seems to be the most well thought out. But the politics of it all require the candidates to have their "own" plan. Silliness.
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