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Old 05-29-2007, 09:18 PM   #41
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Hey, is that orange peel lined with tin foil? Maybe I should try that--it would repel the RF energy controling my thoughts and also defend against (free) radical thoughts!
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Old 05-29-2007, 09:30 PM   #42
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Okay martha...what the hell is that greenish thing... :P
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Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
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Old 05-29-2007, 09:32 PM   #43
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Artichoke leaf. Eat your fruits and veggies. Keeps you healthy.
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Old 05-29-2007, 09:34 PM   #44
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SamHouston,
I'm with you on the candidates. Who's the heir to the Goldwater legacy in the GOP? No one in the field now. Still, there are discernable differences, so we may just have to hold our nose and pick the least objectionable.

Health care: Obama's plan apparently keeps the worst aspects of the present system (private insurance costs/inefficiency/paperwork) and adds in the well known nimble, efficient hand of government controls/funding. The best of everything! Hold on to your wallets. I like the part where "the government will monitor insurance companies and limit their profits." Great. Those would be the profits that get distributed to shareholders, so holders of those securities might get hurt. Fortunately, I'm sure the same committee will also step in to pay shareholders their expected dividends if there is a shortfall. Ha.
Lets wait for the details.
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Old 05-29-2007, 09:36 PM   #45
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Artichoke leaf. Eat your fruits and veggies. Keeps you healthy.

Wow, thats a huge artichoke leaf you have m'am.

Dang if that doesnt sound like a pickup line.
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:00 PM   #46
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Politicans are fameous for making grandious statements..especially when running for office. Show me an actually plan from start to finish...who it will cover, how much coverage, how much it will cost every tax payer etc. That's a plan, not a vision or a wanna have or a dream or a statement to woo the masses. Kind of like a business plan...which our government isn't used to having because it requires thought, planning and a budget!!!!
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:19 PM   #47
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That was my point. Theres no care for uninsured people until they're very sick or injured, then we all foot the emergency room bills. In between, we pay billions in overhead and bureaucracy.

In the meanwhile, i'm unaware of any country who has implemented universal health care that has seen a huge tax jump, sudden increases in firings/unemployment, or people with needed procedures being made to wait significantly longer periods of time.

All the rest of this is BS, smoke and hoo-hah.

Now dont go and make me put some random food item on some poor animals head...
This article will give you some insight into the longterm unintended consequences of a public sytem of healthcare delivery:

Socialized Medicine: The Canadian Experience

"During the first four years of hospitalization insurance in Quebec, government expenditures on this program doubled."

"As demand rises and expensive technology is introduced, health costs soar. But with taxes already at a breaking point, government has little recourse but to try to hold down costs. In Quebec, hospitals have been facing budget cuts both in operating expenses and in capital expenditures. Hospital equipment is often outdated, and the number of general hospital beds dropped by 21 per cent from 1972 to 1980."

..."the government has put a ceiling on certain categories of income: for instance, any fees earned by a general practitioner in excess of $164,108 (Canadian) a year are reimbursed at a rate of only 25 per cent."

"Surgery candidates face long waiting lists -- it can take six months to have a cataract removed. Heart surgeons report patients dying on their waiting lists. But then, it's free."

"No wonder, then, that medicine in Quebec consumes only 9 per cent of gross domestic product (7 per cent if we consider only public expenditures) compared to some 11 per cent in the United States. This does not indicate that health services are delivered efficiently at low cost. It reflects the fact that prices and remunerations in this industry are arbitrarily fixed, that services are rationed, and that individuals are forbidden to spend their medical-care dollars as they wish."

"Even if access to health services is a desirable objective, it is by no means clear that a socialized system is the answer. Without market rationing, queues form. There are ways to jump the queue, but they are not equally available to everyone." ..."these ways to jump the queue are pretty expensive for the typical lower middle class housewife, not to talk of the poor.
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:31 PM   #48
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Whatta ya think? We're kidding around here?!?

You asked for it. It gets ugly from here on out. Whoops...already did...
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Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
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Old 05-29-2007, 10:57 PM   #49
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Rich -

You know where my priorities are.
i think we all do!

sometimes when i facilitate meetings, i ask people to self-facilitate - ie if you're talking too much, not letting others talk, you take a back seat and see what others have to say. why don't you give that a try for a while?

in the meantime - cfb are you bored today since i think you know where this conversation goes...
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Old 05-29-2007, 11:06 PM   #50
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. . .

Or maybe SG with a burrito...
That sounds good. I wouldn't mind a burrito.
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Old 05-29-2007, 11:08 PM   #51
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Not scare tactics, but a realistic possibility, and no, I don't think it will happen to everyone...but only the middle class and wealthier Americans. If you dig into the history of Canada's universalized system, you'll find that within 4 years of implementation, income taxes went up something like 40% after implementation.. something to think about.... (I'd have to go back and get the exact figures...if anyone is interested.)


Go ahead and lock the thread.....censorship is a typical solution from left-wingers who want to shut up anyone who has a different opinion or concern that they want to put out to the public.
Here comes Thelma and Louis again. If you make over $250,000 a year your taxes will go up. Sorry! Ask the average (not rich ones) Canadian if they want to exchange their health care system for the US system and you will get a solid no. One thing they don't have in Canada is health insurance agents. That also saves a lot of money.
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Old 05-29-2007, 11:09 PM   #52
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. . . Show me an actually plan from start to finish...who it will cover, how much coverage, how much it will cost every tax payer etc. . .
Oh, now I have to call "b#llsh!t". You can't tell me any of those things for the POS we call a healthcare system today. If someone could give you that information for a proposed plan, you would have absolutely no way to compare it to what we currently have to deal with.
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Old 05-29-2007, 11:32 PM   #53
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I think we all have missed the boat by not buying health insurance company stock. These poor companies that one person seems to care so much about have done pretty good. United Health Group only increased its revenue by 54% to 71.5 Billion with a big B in 2006. I really feel they needed to be protected. Bring on National Health Care.


UnitedHealth Group realized diversified growth across its business segments and generated earnings from operations
of nearly $7.0 billion, up 37 percent over 2005.
> Revenue was more than $71.5 billion, a 54 percent increase over 2005.
> Cash flows from operations reached more than $6.5 billion, an increase of 60 percent.
> Diluted net earnings per common share were $2.97, an increase of 29 percent over 2005.
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:36 AM   #54
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Oh, now I have to call "b#llsh!t". You can't tell me any of those things for the POS we call a healthcare system today. If someone could give you that information for a proposed plan, you would have absolutely no way to compare it to what we currently have to deal with.
(this is stargazer08 using DH's account)
Sqeeeee, no need to be a potty mouth
Hmmm, well I for one know how much tax I pay, how much is taken from my paycheck for my health insurance and how much I pay when I go to the doctors office. What I have NO idea of is how much it will cost me to subsidize health care for everyone under Obama's plan. Our kids are already going to be burdened with SS and Medicare and now another huge government run plan? FYI,DH and I are ER'ing at the end of June and universal coverage would benefit us since we will no longer be working and are about 18 years away from Medicare.
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Old 05-30-2007, 06:44 AM   #55
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(this is stargazer08 using DH's account)

Hmmm, well I for one know how much tax I pay, how much is taken from my paycheck for my health insurance and how much I pay when I go to the doctors office. What I have NO idea of is how much it will cost me to subsidize health care for everyone under Obama's plan.
Really? - What did the Iraq war cost you?
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Old 05-30-2007, 07:22 AM   #56
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Why can't we just solve the problems that make health care unfordable? If I could pay a reasonable price for the product I wouldn't need insurance at all. When technology advances it should drive down costs, but that doesn't seem to hold for the health care industry - why?
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Old 05-30-2007, 07:39 AM   #57
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Here comes Thelma and Louis again. If you make over $250,000 a year your taxes will go up. Sorry! Ask the average (not rich ones) Canadian if they want to exchange their health care system for the US system and you will get a solid no. One thing they don't have in Canada is health insurance agents. That also saves a lot of money.
It's probably going to be more like if you make more than $50K-$75K/yr. I already told Cute and Fuzzy that if my taxes go up 10 or 20 grand per year, I'll have to fire one or two employees (that's less revenue for the gov't). That's not a question of "if". It will happen. I simply can't afford to continue to pay my employees if my taxes go up that much. Being that the average cost of family coverage right now runs around 10K per year, if we cover all Americans, and if only the people who gross more than $250K are going to pay for it, I don't think a tax increase of 10K or 20K is that unrealitic. If I am going to be in that boat as a small employer, I'm sure there will be many others. Can you estimate what kind of impact that will have on our economy?

I'd rather agree to contract with an evil profit taking insurance company and have plenty of options for coverage including cheap, catastrophic options if that's all I need, than give the government free reign to implement a Cadillac plan for everyone and than take another 20% of my income each month to pay for it. I'll only agree to a nationalized system of coverage if the plan stops at catastrophic coverage with preventive care built in. Anything beyond that is too much, and leaves no responsibility for recipients to share in or save for costs that are neither preventive nor catastrophic.

WE'VE GOT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE LONGRUN before we just haphazardly vote someone in with big promises. Did you actually read the article I posted?
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Old 05-30-2007, 07:58 AM   #58
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That sounds good. I wouldn't mind a burrito.
Here ya go.

I'll have to go engineer something reallly special if this doesnt settle down...
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Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
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Old 05-30-2007, 07:58 AM   #59
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Free -

Take a look at this chart - notice the red line - social spending. Since the evil rich people are already paying for most of this (about 80%), how much more do you expect them to pay for healthcare for all? We know that Medicare and Medicaid together eat about 22% of the budget. If we cover the rest of America the same way,publicly, how much do you think that going to cost?

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/fedcomp.gif
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Old 05-30-2007, 08:02 AM   #60
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I'll bet this whole socialized education system and socialized retirement program stuff really gets you hot under the collar as well.

Not to mention thousands of your tax dollars going to build roads and bridges in places you've never been or will go to in your lifetime.

Thats just gotta burn you up.
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