Obama offers universal health care plan

The healthcare system currently in the U.S. puts the value of a dollar bill above the value of a human life. The level of moral corruption and the inhumanity in our system is really unfathomable for a society as wealthy and advanced as ours. How access to affordable healthcare is not a basic human right in America is beyond me.

Some things to think about for the shiny coin crowd:

Healthy people function better. Do healthy people help the economy?

How much more productive would an employee be if they worked a job they enjoyed instead of a job don't like, but that provides enough health coverage for their family. Does a healthy more productive employee help the economy?

How much violent crime could be prevented if a mother (or father) was able to spend more time at home with their children during their formative years instead of working 2 jobs to pay family medical bills. Is lower violent crime good for the economy?

How many lives could be saved because the elderly wouldn't have to skip their pills because they can't afford the prescriptions. If the elderly could live longer, could they contribute to the economy?

How many new jobs could be created if more people could afford to start their own businesses because they don't have to pay astronomical rates for private health insurance, if they get coverage at all? Is job creation good for the economy?

If you answered NO to any of the above, pick up your toys and go home.
 
sgeeeee said:
Ohhh. Ohhh. Could I have another colonoscopy please. It's only been a few months, but I really like the taste of that pink fluid. :2funny::2funny::2funny:
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You guys are scaring me...

I need to schedule one of those things next week as the tail-end (pun intended) of my annual physical. Yuck. :eek:
 
Trek said:
Healthy people function better. Do healthy people help the economy?

How much more productive would an employee be if they worked a job they enjoyed instead of a job don't like, but that provides enough health coverage for their family. Does a healthy more productive employee help the economy?.
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I am sure healthy people function better and are more productive. A national catastrophic plan with preventive care benefits not subject to a deductible would be a great solution here. It gives people portable coverage, protection from bankruptcy, and incentives to seek preventive care. It also still makes them responsible for SOME of their own healthcare costs, which helps keep inflation in check.

Trek said:
How much violent crime could be prevented if a mother (or father) was able to spend more time at home with their children during their formative years instead of working 2 jobs to pay family medical bills. Is lower violent crime good for the economy?
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There are a lot more reasons why people work two jobs besides just to pay for medical care. Feminism, big houses, fancy cars, fun vacations, etc...A HUGE portion of the population can already qualify for affordable coverage...only a small percentage cannot. I'm skeptical that changing an entire healthcare system would result in lower rates of crime, but I totally agree with you that lower crime rates would be advantageous to the economy....I just don't think our healthcare system has much to do with that. Crime is also a function of racial discrimination, the breakdown of the family unit (divorce rates), drug and alcohol abuse, etc....and I don't think that's a problem that's easily resolved by nationalizing healthcare.

Trek said:
How many lives could be saved because the elderly wouldn't have to skip their pills because they can't afford the prescriptions. If the elderly could live longer, could they contribute to the economy?
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Medicare Part D coverage (prescription drug coverage for the elderly) costs about $30.00 a month ..and the copays range from $0-$70 generally on that plan. (most drugs that people take fall into the lower copay range.) Are you saying that's not enough? Who should we tax to pay for all of the costs?

Trek said:
How many new jobs could be created if more people could afford to start their own businesses because they don't have to pay astronomical rates for private health insurance, if they get coverage at all? Is job creation good for the economy?
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How many jobs would be lost if we tax "wealthy" business owners to a point where they can't afford to keep their employees anymore? Is unemployment good for the economy? How many people would bother starting up a business if they knew that success would result in the highest tax rates that they have ever paid?
 
I seriously doubt that Obama has any idea what his plan would ultimately cost, nor does he really care. And that's because he realizes that he is promising the impossible. I wish that were not the case, but we have to remember, after all, that he's running for President and that most promises made in a campaign year never again see the light of day.
 
Hmm...last time I looked at the breakdowns of health care costs, the actual cost of the health care wasnt the fast rising category. Overhead and bureaucracy were.

So in summary: The doctors here think universal health care is a good idea. The prospective patients here think universal health care is a good idea. The insurance people dont like the idea and are maniacally throwing up clouds of misinformation to create FUD.

Sounds about right.
 
How many jobs would be lost if we tax "wealthy" business owners to a point where they can't afford to keep their employees anymore? Is unemployment good for the economy? How many people would bother starting up a business if they knew that success would result in the highest tax rates that they have ever paid
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Are you ignoring the fact that we are going to pay back billions of dollars from the war - i.e. higher taxes? I think you should worry about that before you take aim at some form of universal healthcare coverage. A lengthy war with unclear goals/outcomes will suck the life out our society before universal healthcare coverage will.
 
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cute fuzzy bunny said:
Hmm...last time I looked at the breakdowns of health care costs, the actual cost of the health care wasnt the fast rising category. Overhead and bureaucracy were.

So in summary: The doctors here think universal health care is a good idea. The prospective patients here think universal health care is a good idea. The insurance people dont like the idea and are maniacally throwing up clouds of misinformation to create FUD.

Sounds about right.
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I'd love to see those breakdowns on admin. costs vs. cost of the actual insurance over the past 7 years, can you send them to me? If you PM me, I'll send you my email address....

I do know that Broker commissions have been the same since I started 10 years ago. 20% first year for individual insurance dropping to 5% thereafter as long as the policy exists, and we get a flat average of $20 per member per month for primary only on groups - Kaiser only pays $11/member per month for the primary insured. Admin. has become more and more automated (ie...internet apps/internet claims review, electronic claim submission, cutting back of service reps. because of the capabilities of members to review and obtain their own info on the internet, etc..), so it's hard for me to believe that the general admin. costs are outpacing inflation...but, if you send me the hard data, I'll consider it!
 
cute fuzzy bunny said:
. . .
So in summary: The doctors here think universal health care is a good idea. The prospective patients here think universal health care is a good idea. The insurance people dont like the idea and are maniacally throwing up clouds of misinformation to create FUD.

Sounds about right.
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Yeah, yeah yeah. But would you like an extra colonoscopy? :confused:
 
wildcat said:
Are you ignoring the fact that we are going to pay back billions of dollars from the war - i.e. higher taxes? I think you should worry about that before you take aim at some form of universal healthcare coverage. A lengthy war with unclear goals/outcomes will suck the life out our society before universal healthcare coverage will.
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We already spend more than the current war spending on Medicare and Medicaid alone, and that doesn't even cover 1/2 of the USA population, so to me, the war costs are minimal compared to what the cost of gov't sponsored coverage will eventually be....especially if we give it away with little or no out of pocket responsibility for recipients.
 
We just came back from the grocery store.

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Graphs, although nice to look at, tell me very little.

I always question how the gov or other politically motivated websites/think tanks report the amount of money spent on the war. It is very difficult to quantify war spending which I think is always higher that what is truly reported.

For example, I think you also have to look at the lost of human life. Aside from the atrocities of losing an American soldier on the battle field, these are young people who would otherwise have been tax paying/productive citizens of our society. The future taxes and benefits they would have contributed are gone. None of that shows up on a graph.


Besides, last time I checked, the reported cost of the war continues to rise and far exceed estimates. However, the point I want to emphasize is --- what benefit can we expect by spending as much as we have on Iraq vs. what benefit can we expect by not spending that money and putting towards the needs of our society? Regardless of the amount --- and you can be right on that issue for all I care --- I believe the benefit is at least obtainable.
 
wildcat said:
Graphs, although nice to look at, tell me very little.
Besides, last time I checked, the reported cost of the war continues to rise and far exceed estimates. However, the point I want to emphasize is --- what benefit can we expect by spending as much as we have on Iraq vs. what benefit can we expect by not spending that money and putting towards the needs of our society? Regardless of the amount --- and you can be right on that issue for all I care --- I believe the benefit is at least obtainable.
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It may be obtainable, but if we've already got nearly 70 Trillion of unfunded Medicare obligations, how much more will we have when we nationalize coverage for the rest of the USA with no out of pocket responsibility for recipients? Ending the war could pay for a small fraction of that, but then you've got to get the rest of the money from somewhere. All I'm saying is that Obama is making empty promises....to say that the only change will be a lower premium for you. <maybe a lower premium, but, IMO, those charts, especially the unfunded Medicare obligations, make me think we are all looking at big tax hikes down the line, especially for those currently making more than $75,000/yr, so I really don't see how we can afford to just give away free care to the rest of the country.
 
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Again very hard to quantify b/c you don't know what the upside could potentially be by offering some form of universal healthcare coverage. It isn't just cost, it also benefit.

If a student is interested in college but frets over the cost and decides not to go in order to save money, there is a solid chance she/he passed up on higher future earnings and career prospects. Doesn't make the forgone money that would have been spent on school look like such a great idea.

You can say it's a bad example b/c you can point to statistics that reasonably suggest the benefit is obtainable and in the case of universal healthcare coverage there aren't statistics to prove my case. However, I haven't seen too many examples of countries with nationalized healthcare that have poor qualities of life -- some of the best but that is my opinion -- and I am sure at some point they had to figure out away to fit the bill. We aren't the only country with an aging population.
 
mkld -

I really am not trying to attack you. This is just a thread that covers a topic I am passionate about and one that I think we be THE next big thing in our country's immediate future. We will just agree to disagree and I commend your willingness to present your -- the unpopular one in this case -- view on healthcare.
 
Wildcat -

I haven't had the impression that you're trying to attack me....debates are the spice of life! I too, am also very passionate about this subject, and simply feel there are better ways to solve the problem besides nationalizing and giving a blank healthcare check to all Americans. I like to think about the longterm consequences, because it will be my children and children's children who will have to deal with the changes we make now.

wildcat said:
Again very hard to quantify b/c you don't know
You can say it's a bad example b/c you can point to statistics that reasonably suggest the benefit is obtainable and in the case of universal healthcare coverage there aren't statistics to prove my case. However, I haven't seen too many examples of countries with nationalized healthcare that have poor qualities of life -- some of the best but that is my opinion -- and I am sure at some point they had to figure out away to fit the bill. We aren't the only country with an aging population.
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Yup - they do find a way to pay for it - - just look at the income taxes as a percent of income around the world. How about Germany - often touted as having the best healthcare system. How about France?

Think your taxes are bad? - MSN Money

If you don't think 10%, 20% or 30% more than you currently pay is unrealistic down the road, think again...and yet, many of these countries STILL have enormous waiting lists for services despite the huge tax burdens...how can that be?
 
cute fuzzy bunny said:
Hmm...last time I looked at the breakdowns of health care costs, the actual cost of the health care wasnt the fast rising category. Overhead and bureaucracy were.

So in summary: The doctors here think universal health care is a good idea. The prospective patients here think universal health care is a good idea. The insurance people dont like the idea and are maniacally throwing up clouds of misinformation to create FUD.

Sounds about right.
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and it only took 18 pages in this thread for you guys to hammer this out...next time, you will be graded on brevity...:cool:
 
Personnally - speaking for myself only - I'd rather talk kayaks than actually buy one or even - heaven forbide get all sweaty propelling a real kayak thru real water.

A budding classic going here - pending further refinement of course.

heh heh heh - here's to mortgage/not morgage, when to take SS, and last but not least - 4% SWR. :cool:. Never again shall I endure a 12 year stretch(age 49 - 62) without health insurance. Like Arnie says (health insurance) -- I'll be back. :D :D :D. I still vote for dynamic simulation but then I'm left handed.
 
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