Join Early Retirement Today
View Poll Results: Do you prefer a Single Payer Philosophy for Health Care?
Yes 87 63.97%
No 49 36.03%
Voters: 136. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-16-2013, 01:09 PM   #21
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Historic Florida
Posts: 1,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by txtig View Post
I'm amazed that a majority of the members of this forum (or at least a majority of those who have voted so far) favor a single payer system. This group tilts very heavily towards a philosophy of self-responsibility, self-reliance and independent thinking. I can't reconcile how such a group would be willing to hand over responsibility for their health care to our federal government!!
This is not true. I have been part of 2 similar systems Canada & UK. While not perfect, and I am not a great supporter of the British system, they are better than what we have currently in the USA. I have had Major surgery in both systems as well as the USA, and the care was just as good in each system. Other than having to share a room in The UK and Canada, there was no real difference that I could put my finger on.

The biggest improvement of the others over the system in the US is the noticeable lack of big brother (Insurance Company) making the health decisions as opposed to what Americans are so afraid of, and of course the total lack of paperwork, deductibles and copays. In the 2 above mentioned "Single Payer" systems, I noticed I always got SERVICE FIRST! Not "Can I see your insurance Card". I have experienced this FIRST hand. When I had to have a Pacemaker, I had to wait until approval was received from the insurance company before I was operated on.

I know you hear all sorts of stories to the latter, but PLEASE respect I talk from actual personal experience not here say.

Overall having experienced 3 medical systems I would vote for the Canadian system hands down. Please do not bring up waiting times or other negatives, I have had to wait just as long if not longer for "some" procedures in the US than Canada or the UK for that matter. Remember, None are perfect, some things will fall through the cracks. But "Death Panels" give me a break. Remember what an earlier poster wrote + my 2c: In a nutshell 80% of America are borderline illiterate, they (in part) are the ones fueling the notions like death panels and excessive waiting periods for everything, it simply is not true.

If one draws a line down the middle pros vs cons the "Single Payer system wins hand down. Again I am writing from personal and family experience not here say.
__________________

__________________
"Arguing with an Engineer is like rolling in the mud with a pig. Just remember that the pig likes it."
ShokWaveRider is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 10-16-2013, 01:12 PM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishingmn View Post
Umm... Medicare is a form of a single payer system. It's the private payer system that is in question.

And while you've had good experiences my daughter went into a clinic for a splinter removal (5 minutes) and got an $840 bill (love the coding systems) so for every good story there are lots of bad ones too.
Nobody in his right mind would say that the US system does not need reform.

When I said I was happy with my healthcare, I was discussing the quality of care. I was also quite content with the low cost of routine care, as a couple of examples that I described.

Here's another one. Last year, I needed to have a cyst removed from my back. It was just a benign sebaceous cyst. The cost for an initial consultation, the minor surgery, then a follow up was $380. I thought that was quite reasonable to pay the dermatologist that, compared to what I just paid my mechanic to replace my auto A/C: $350 for labor.

Now, I have recently incurred heavy expenses for treatments at a hospital. I would be very unhappy if I did not already exceed my deductible of $10K/year, and my insurer did not bear the full brunt of it (I knew what they paid).

It's the hospitalization that is expensive. No one has done anything to see how it can be reduced.
__________________

__________________
NW-Bound is online now  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:19 PM   #23
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
Those countries are good examples but the government is in control of the prices, and health insurance companies have to be non-profit. I believe all countries with universal health care have very heavy government control, even if delivery of the services comes from the private sector.
Fine.

But again, people are just so quick to say that single-payer is the only way to go!
__________________
NW-Bound is online now  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:21 PM   #24
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
It's the hospitalization that is expensive. No one has done anything to see how it can be reduced.
You are certainly correct. Yet for some reason that I have never had explained, US hospitals are mostly on the verge of bankruptcy. Why is this?

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:22 PM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
nun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
The US has two major health care problems; access and cost. It seems obvious that market forces have not kept costs down in the US as shown when you compare the cost of care and outcomes of the US with other developed countries.

Having grown up in the UK with NHS and then lived in the US for 27 years I far prefer the UK system because of the universal access and the lack of paperwork, worry and the need to pay when care is given. But it's an anomaly among world systems because it came about after the catharsis of WWII and the Labour Government had a mandate to implement socialist policies. Such a system, or even universal Medicare, will never be adopted in the US, but a system similar to the Japanese one might if the US can recognize the need for regulation before the vested interests cause the system to collapse under unsustainable expenses.
__________________
“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

Current AA: 65% Equity Funds / 20% Bonds / 7% Stable Value /3% Cash / 5% TIAA Traditional
Retired Mar 2014 at age 52, target WR: 0.0%,
Income from pension and rent
nun is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:26 PM   #26
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishingmn View Post
To me the real question is whether one believes there should be a right to healthcare.

If one believes that we should have all have personal freedom to make our own choices and live with the consequences that's fine but leaving 50 Million people to go to the emergency room as their only option isn't really healthcare.
While true, it's not quite that simple. In the USA, healthcare is one of very few products/services where competition has very little or no influence on costs/prices or quality. As a result, we pay far more per capita than any other country, and have mediocre outcomes. And those prices have/are increasing at a rate much higher than CPI.

Furthermore, health care is a major, highly variable expense. It used to be relatively inexpensive.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:27 PM   #27
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishingmn View Post
To me the real question is whether one believes there should be a right to healthcare.

If one believes that we should have all have personal freedom to make our own choices and live with the consequences that's fine but leaving 50 Million people to go to the emergency room as their only option isn't really healthcare.
To you perhaps this is the question, however, the question posed was not that, but rather do you favor a single payer system. Unless you think that Obamacare is vaporware, we already have enacted universal care so that question is off the table. It may be morally persuasive, but like last weeks elections, it is settled.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:38 PM   #28
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,384
As long as I stay healthy, the present system no doubt benefits me. In theory I am not opposed to single payer. But, assuming single payer also means universal coverage, and no meaningful cost controls are somehow implemented before it takes place, I doubt I could count high enough to reach the number needed the VAT tax would have to bring in to pay for it all.
__________________
Mulligan is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:43 PM   #29
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
You are certainly correct. Yet for some reason that I have never had explained, US hospitals are mostly on the verge of bankruptcy. Why is this?

Ha
Have you read the Time article on the exorbitant health care costs and profit margins in the U.S. called Bitter Pill?

http://www.uta.edu/faculty/story/231...ndAndGreed.pdf
__________________
daylatedollarshort is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:51 PM   #30
Full time employment: Posting here.
Koogie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: GTA
Posts: 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
I think everyone should have whatever they want, whenever they want, from whomever they want, and the rich should pay for it, perhaps by a tax on single malt whisky or craft spirits.
Ha
I, and the similarly avatared, are aghast at your proposal, dear Sir !

Instead, I propose a tax on ale or mead or whatever it is you peasants drink.
Also, perhaps pork rinds and Nascar..


And as a Canajun, I only have first hand knowledge of the system in the Great White North and also the NHS from time living in the UK. So, I will leave you to your debate and its relative merits.

I would say in parting, most of us foreigners can't understand it.

You're the richest country in the world.

Taking care of ALL your citizens health, in whatever manner (private/gubmint) you deem fit, should be one of the wisest uses of that wealth surely.
__________________
"No one's interested in something you didn't do"
Tragically Hip - Wheat Kings
Koogie is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:59 PM   #31
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,445
Off topic here, but this year is the first time I need expensive healthcare, well any real care for that matter. My doctor had never been able to find anything wrong with me, and I have been careful all my life to not need any stitches, never any splint for broken bones, etc... I guess my luck ran out. Well, I digress off an off-topic post...

Anyway, I spent 5 nights in one hospital for a major surgery, then 5 nights in another hospital for a follow-up surgery. The hospital charges were not sufficiently detailed, but one hospital charged quite a bit more per night than the other. At the more expensive one, patients call up the cafeteria to order their meal from a menu that looks like one at a real restaurant. Amazing! I never saw a hospital like that. The nursing was also better than at the other one, which of course served usual hospital food.

Well, I was not able to tell the food was as good as it looked on the menu. You see, my surgeon put me on a restricted diet, and when I was well enough to try their filet mignon (think it was there, but cannot be sure now), they kicked me out of the hospital. Bummer!

The better hospital was not that good (service, not just food) back when my father was their frequent client more than 10 years ago, and I visited him almost daily. Well, the improvement appears to come at a higher cost, and I was surprised that my insurer had no problem paying for it. And I do not mean that the other hospital was bad. Far from it.

PS. I was hoping my surgeon would do the follow-up operation at that first hospital. However, it was apparently booked full (can you see why?), and he scheduled me at the other one (which was about the same, other than not having the steak that I was not allowed to order).
__________________
NW-Bound is online now  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:04 PM   #32
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koogie View Post
I, and the similarly avatared, are aghast at your proposal, dear Sir !

Instead, I propose a tax on ale or mead or whatever it is you peasants drink.
Also, perhaps pork rinds and Nascar..

As a favor to you and I, I will propose that the tax be cancelled on Laphroaig.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:10 PM   #33
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,445
My daughter bought me a bottle of single-malt for my birthday last year, knowing that I had never tried this type. I shared it with my son, and we were not sure it was that much different from another common scotch that we had. Peasant's palate!
__________________
NW-Bound is online now  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:20 PM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Recently, I stumbled across the blog of a woman (now deceased) who lived in a country with a single-payer system. Her cancer had metastasized to her spinal column, causing a lot of pain.
There are close to 50 million people in the U.S. without any health insurance at all, and I am sure a percent of them have cancer and aren't getting any treatment.

Have you read any of their blogs?
__________________
daylatedollarshort is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:23 PM   #35
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Marco island
Posts: 813
Lol. Ready to ditch Obamacare already?
__________________
Gatordoc50 is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:27 PM   #36
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort View Post
There are close to 50 million people in the U.S. without any health insurance at all, and I am sure a percent of them have cancer and aren't getting any treatment.

Have you read any of their blogs?
No, although I am sure those blogs are there. Or perhaps the poor people may not even have the means or the time to make a blog.

But the above was not the point.

I think a system that allows people to buy additional insurance so that they get a better treatment than a 2-hr wait for blood draw would be good. Some people want to pay more for cars, or houses than their neighbors, even if they have the same income. Some narcissistic people want to pamper themselves with more expensive care than my frugal self would. Why do I deny them their choice? It appears the 4 nations that I listed allow that.

PS. Umm, in case one says that the big-and-fancy car and McMansion lovers are also narcissistic and should be reined in, I will come to their defense (I am not one of them), and say that they may simply have better taste than this cheap guy. They also stimulate the economy like crazy! And I love that it would boost the stock price of my companies. I am not just frugal, but also selfish and want to see my portfolio going up and up.
__________________
NW-Bound is online now  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:39 PM   #37
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,906
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
They think they can keep their taxable incomes low enough to get somebody else to pay for their care.

Ha
Guilty

It isn't like we are ransacking a walmart or something....just trying to get some free healthcare.
__________________
Fermion is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:49 PM   #38
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
You are certainly correct. Yet for some reason that I have never had explained, US hospitals are mostly on the verge of bankruptcy. Why is this?
It would be interesting to see how much of the high hospital costs are because they are required to provide free emergency care to those without insurance and therefore must pass the costs on to those that do. Has there been a study that looks at that?
__________________
Fishingmn is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:50 PM   #39
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Marco island
Posts: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by daylatedollarshort

The last time WHO did a study of health care by country, the U.S. was first in cost (by a wide margin) and 38th in quality.

A more recent study on the health of the population of 17 developed countries, all with some form of universal care except the U.S., the U.S. came in dead last -

New Health Rankings: Of 17 Nations, U.S. Is Dead Last - Grace Rubenstein - The Atlantic
Same statistics can be stated for education. And how about defense? We're really good at taxing and spending but not so hot on efficiency.
__________________
Gatordoc50 is offline  
Old 10-16-2013, 03:04 PM   #40
Moderator
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Eee Bah Gum
Posts: 21,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
I think a system that allows people to buy additional insurance so that they get a better treatment than a 2-hr wait for blood draw would be good. Some people want to pay more for cars, or houses than their neighbors, even if they have the same income. Some narcissistic people want to pamper themselves with more expensive care than my frugal self would. Why do I deny them their choice? It appears the 4 nations that I listed allow that.
As does the UK. The NHS is the primary healthcare provider but many people also have private health insurance. I had BUPA Health Insurance through my last 2 employers in the UK from 1979 to 1987 (when I moved to the US). Employer provided Health Insurance is a company perk in the UK, and is also purchased by individuals. My US health insurance through BCBS is accepted at many hospitals in the UK. I can go to BCBS online and look up the nearest private hospitals to where I'm staying for elective stuff. (for emergencies any ER will do).
__________________

__________________
Retired in Jan, 2010 at 55, moved to England in May 2016
Now it's adventure before dementia
Alan is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:44 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.