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Old 07-27-2007, 12:45 PM   #41
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So, to get us all out of this sticky situation, I'd like to officially call Goodwin's Law on CFB. Thread adjourned.
Wait a minute, does this fall under Quirk's Exception?
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Old 07-27-2007, 12:48 PM   #42
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Well technically yes, but I also ran afoul of the "propaganda doesnt count" sub section of godwins law.

If this aint propaganda we're getting pasted with in 2-4 serial posts at a time, I dont know what is...

I should really foul myself now by pointing out that I mentioned "skinheads" in the other running and equally ridiculous "Why you should give all your money to the insurance companies I work for, and dont try any of that funny 'facts' stuff, mister..." thread, so thats a nice fat one waiting to be picked up by some hapless poster, commented on and creation of closure should be imminent at that juncture.
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Old 07-27-2007, 01:27 PM   #43
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Kcowan -

1. College student son of a friend suffered three strokes as a child of 3 months. He is moderately physically impaired. When he graduates in two years, there are many companies that will not hire him because he is a health risk. Cannot buy health insurance under the current system. Uninsurable.

---this is one of the unfortunate problems with our system. However, this boy will most likely qualify for a gov't program if he cannot work.

2. 16 year old son of a good friend, diagnosed with a benign tumor on his spine. Tumor removed successfully. Tests reveal benign brain tumor, which must be monitored regularly by doctor. Now, at 20 years old, he is uninsurable.

--- in the individual market, he will be unable to obtain coverage. However, this young person will very likely be able to find guaranteed coverage through employment.

3. Acquaintance in mid-50s, worth $2.5 million in property and trust funds. Anemic and overweight. Cannot find any company that will insure her, even though she's willing to pay for it. Uninsurable even though able to pay high premiums.

---- This all depends on the state she lives in. In Colorado, she could potentially qualify for Aetna or Anthem. She could definately qualify for Cover Colorado. I am sure there are several other states where she could get guaranteed issue coverage. If she is a millionnaire, perhaps she could set aside some of her own money for healthcare expenses. USA doctors have no problem accepting cash payment. I'd be willing to bet World Insurance would cover her on their $25,000 deductible stop loss plan. Surely, as a multi-millionnaire she could afford $25,000 if she had to. If she lost a few pounds, she wouldn't have much trouble getting insurance at all.

4. Adult piano student of mine fifteen years ago. Her mother and her two sisters lived into their nineties. All three women owned homes that were to be left to my student's two children as the only heirs. All three women needed long-term care. My student could not get Medicaid to pay until she had sold all three homes and used up the proceeds, thereby depriving her children of their inheritance.

--- Yes - in America, Long term care is something you want to start planning for at a very young age. You can't count on Medicare to pay for it. It's a good idea to either save in advance or take out a long term care plan no later than age 40. I don't see why the gov't should be responsible for long-term care, when the large majority of us has a lifetime to plan for it.

5. I'm 59 years old. My health insurance premium is over $500.00 a month and does not cover my prescription eyeglasses. It covers 10% of basic dental. In three years I will not be able to afford the premium. Have received a letter recently telling me that if I'm late again with my payment, they reserve the right to cancel my coverage. I have paid tens of thousands of dollars to this insurance company for 32 years.

---one of the biggest pitfalls of our system is that health insurance is primarily obtained through employment. If we lose our jobs and aren't healthy, it's hard to find affordable coverage. That's why I'm a huge advocate of disassociating health insurance from employment. If we did that, people would buy their own coverage at a young age, or parents would purchase coverage for their children at birth, and we wouldn't have all of these portability problems and uninsurability issues. With individual coverage, a baby is covered from the moment of birth IF the parent is covered on an individual plan, and that child can keep that coverage throughout life, even if they were born sick. Here's a great little individual vision plan that might be of interest to you - and it's affordable too: Welcome :: Vision Care Direct

6. The HIPAA portability provisions do not extend to self-employed individuals. This means that I do not have the ability to move to a more affordable state unless I am willing to take the chance and live without health insurance since there is no portability guarantee.

--- Again, this is all state specific and dependent on the plan you are on. The only individual plan I know of that requires re-underwriting when you move is BCBS. You'd have to check with your insurance carrier to find out if it would require re-underwriting when you move. This problem doesn't happen to EVERYONE who has individual insurance. It all depends on the state and the insurance carrier.

There are millions of other Americans just like me out there, each with just as many or more "horror" stories.


Neither system is perfect. There are plenty of "horror stories on both sides". There are a lot of solutions to the kinds of problems you mentioned above. Most likely, NONE of the people you mentioned above would be refused care or put on a waiting list if they were suffering or dying, even if they couldn't pay immediately. (except maybe, the long term care folks, but that's a whole 'nother issue). They would be given the care, and then the doctors would figure out how to get payment later.

Rick Baker of Timely Medical in Canada has a booming business helping Canadians who are stuck on waiting lists jump the queue or find private healthcare in America if they have the means to pay for it. Just google his name. His business is becoming more and more popular by the year.
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Old 07-27-2007, 03:38 PM   #44
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However they treated the people from 9/11 that were brought there, stunt maybe
a stunt maybe? Maybe? Are you really that naive?

Let's see, Moore goes into Cube making it clear that Cuba will get a lead role in a film and get an opportunity to look like saints and embarrass a life long enemy of Castro at the same time? That's not a 'stunt'? Oh, and let's not forget to add in a little Moore drama, let's make sure these are victims of the WTC attack, so we can rub a little salt in those wounds for good measure.

Tell you what Mr NewGuy. Take a bunch of inner city kids in need of healthcare into Cuba, led by some no-name without a film crew or any indication of publicity in return. See what kind of service they get.

And, in the mean time, are we ( the US) not providing health care for illegal immigrants and the children of illegal immigrants?

I'm not saying we don't have big problems with health care here, but I am saying that making any inference from Moore's stunt with Cuba is ridiculous.

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Old 07-27-2007, 04:42 PM   #45
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Tell you what Mr NewGuy. Take a bunch of inner city kids in need of healthcare into Cuba, led by some no-name without a film crew or any indication of publicity in return. See what kind of service they get.
No need to wonder, their price list is right on the menu. Here is their ad, "As seen on Sicko." Open heart 9-15k, 3 day wait. Breast augmentation 1.5k, hip implant 6k, ... Oh, they arrange travel through Mexico. This is even more sicko.

Affordable Surgeries at world class hospitals without the wait - Planet Hospital
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Old 07-27-2007, 04:58 PM   #46
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Breast implants inserted through the belly button?

oh dear god...the potential jokes are astronomical.
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:08 PM   #47
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Breast implants inserted through the belly button?

oh dear god...the potential jokes are astronomical.
If you go to their additional procedures you will find:
Testicle tuck

Click on complete procedures, then transgender operations.
Of course, that's probably offered only to their political prisoners.
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:37 PM   #48
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No need to wonder, their price list is right on the menu. Here is their ad, "As seen on Sicko." Open heart 9-15k, 3 day wait. Breast augmentation 1.5k, hip implant 6k, ... Oh, they arrange travel through Mexico. This is even more sicko.

Affordable Surgeries at world class hospitals without the wait - Planet Hospital
It's too bad that when foreigners travel to Cuba for medical care, it diverts scarce resources from the average Cuban to the elites and cash paying patients....You guys wouldn't do that, would you?.....I thought you had a heart for all the poor people....

"Cuba's growing health tourism effort has roused bitter reproach from the nation's critics, who accuse the regime of President Fidel Castro of creating an apartheid system of health care, in which foreigners -- and Cuban party elite -- get top-class service while average Cubans must make do with dilapidated facilities, outdated equipment and meagerly stocked pharmacies."

...."But a group of Cuban doctors who fled to the United States in 1997 told U.S. State Department officials a different story."

"Our people's poor health-care situation," they said, according to a State Department report, results in part from a decision by Castro's government "to divert scarce resources to meet the needs of the regime's elite and foreign patients who bring hard currency."
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Old 07-27-2007, 05:49 PM   #49
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"Our people's poor health-care situation," they said, according to a State Department report, results in part from a decision by Castro's government "to divert scarce resources to meet the needs of the regime's elite and foreign patients who bring hard currency."
Actually, that sounds similar to the US system.

"Our people's poor health-care situation," they said, according to a State Department report, results in part from a decision by health care providers "to divert scarce resources to meet the needs of those who can pay and foreign patients who bring hard cash."
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:02 PM   #50
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Actually, that sounds similar to the US system.

"Our people's poor health-care situation," they said, according to a State Department report, results in part from a decision by health care providers "to divert scarce resources to meet the needs of those who can pay and foreign patients who bring hard cash."
You could look at it that way, however, that's how it is for the average Cuban. In America, only a very small percent of the entire population is unwillingly uninsured AND in need of medical services that they can't pay for out of pocket. We don't have scarce resources. Even people who are uninsured get access to good, clean hospitals and expensive equipment at the expense of the insured population.

Please - convince me that the average American has little or no access to good service and equipment, and that your average American has to make do with "dilapidated facilities, outdated equipment and meagerly stocked pharmacies."
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:14 PM   #51
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Please - convince me that the average American has little or no access to good service and equipment.
We've established that at least 20 million don't, and 18,000 a year die because they don't. But you counter, that's OK, the average American has access to good service and equipment.

Would you say the same thing if 20 million Americans had no access to good police and fire services, and 18000 died because of it?

Or, look at the nearly 800 that died in Katrina, and the devastation from the levee breaks. Hey, what's one American city? The average American city wasn't even touched by Katrina.

How about 911? Only around 3000 killed, only two cities hit, hey, the average American was completely safe.

The reason we are "One nation, under God, indivisible..." is that we strive to protect each and every American's right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Every person counts.
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Old 07-27-2007, 07:44 PM   #52
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Wow...you dont think a US state department guy telling a story second hand from a bunch of cuban defectors might have a little bit of a reason to spin a story explaining why americans might not want to try to sneak off to cuba for some cheap medical care? This is GOOD information, you think?

How about maybe the hard currency non-resident customers are pumping money into a seriously deficient economy, resulting in an IMPROVEMENT of care to everyone in the country?

Does absolutely ANYTHING fail your "sniff test"? Do you even HAVE one? :
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Old 07-28-2007, 09:46 AM   #53
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How about maybe the hard currency non-resident customers are pumping money into a seriously deficient economy, resulting in an IMPROVEMENT of care to everyone in the country?
Nationalized healthcare never passes my sniff test. Let's examine your statement above. In order for Castro to be able to pump money back into their national health system by offering private care to elites and foreigners, they would have to take a PROFIT, and, by your own words, it is not right to profit off someone's health problems.

The amount of profit taken is relative to how the rest of the economy is doing, and I am sure that the Cubans on the social program there think that the private facilities take excessive profits and feel as if it is unfair that they don't have the financial means to access those facilities. On the other hand, the cost of care in Cuba seams like a bargain to Americans, because our economy soars above theirs and most Americans have the kind of money to get good private care in Cuba.

If you think it's a great idea to offer private care in order to be able to pump money back into a failing economy, then why not just privatize the whole system, and then you wouldn't have to do that in the first place? That would make the whole system more competitive and efficient, and then the good facilities would be available to everyone in Cuba.
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Old 07-28-2007, 11:21 AM   #54
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Nationalized healthcare never passes my sniff test.
Ah, we've finally gotten to the bottom of it. You lament that others dont take your half baked sources seriously and contemplate them, but then admit that you would simply never accept nationalized health care.

I'd take a poll on it, but I'm betting the volume of audience that agrees with you on this board is darn close to zero.

So may I ask you, as a reasonable person to a reasonable person, to please stop firebombing every thread about health care with anti-nationalization rhetoric and half-baked 'studies'?

You have acknowledged that you wont be convinced otherwise. I dont believe you're going to convince anyone either. The process is pretty displeasing.

I enjoy all of your posts when we're not talking about this particular topic.
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Old 07-28-2007, 07:26 PM   #55
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Breast implants inserted through the belly button?

oh dear god...the potential jokes are astronomical.
you watched a reality show on the sci fi channel and never once peeped an episode of Dr. 90210...belly boob lifts at least 3 times a day, or catch one of those marathons on the weekend...

oh, and i agree w/ cfb on at least the last 4 or so posts up...can't match his wit or cuteness, so i've stopped tryin and...i've gotten too lazy to respond...

but the sniff test is pretty funny. you know sometimes when your standing in a pile of manure, you eventually stop smelling it...try coffee beans, they're supposed to neutralize, step away, sniff beans, step back - take big whiff! smell anything?
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Old 07-28-2007, 08:37 PM   #56
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How about 911? Only around 3000 killed, only two cities hit, hey, the average American was completely safe.
Shoot, I missed this completely on the first go-round...the old boards s/w's "someone posted while you were posting" feature sure was handy.

In line with this, I should mention that the average temperature in chernobyl over the last 21 years has been 70 degrees.

Its quite a bit lower if you take out that one 10,000 degree day...

But I say we just dont look at that.

It all averages out nicely.
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Old 07-29-2007, 10:15 AM   #57
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MM has said that after his appearance on the Tonight Show on the 26th said the Bush administration has served him with a subpoena regarding his trip to Cuba during the making of his new film, "Sicko."

I find this ironic to see our justice department so focused on healthcare (or his healthcare message) while this administration totally ignores the issue at the national level. Sounds to me like the lobbyists are beginning to feel threatened - I'm glad.

Michael Moore says he's been served

Peace
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Old 07-30-2007, 08:29 AM   #58
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However, in my experience, if a claim like that were denied, the first thing I would do as the client's broker is expedite copies of medical records to the insurance carrier and walk them through the system to upper management to "prove" that the condition was not pre-existing...I hope that most people know they don't have to take some "clerk's" cockamamee decision as the final answer... Call a broker for help if you don't know what to do!
Good grief MyKids - you finally wrote a very good description of what is wrong with our system. Can't you see that the process you described is designed to screw people? You need a PHD or hired help just to sort through the paperwork. The insurance companies can deny payment for "preexisting conditions" you did not even know you have -- it is obscene - beyond words.
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Old 07-30-2007, 08:38 AM   #59
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Good grief MyKids - you finally wrote a very good description of what is wrong with our system. Can't you see that the process you described is designed to screw people? You need a PHD or hired help just to sort through the paperwork. The insurance companies can deny payment for "preexisting conditions" you did not even know you have -- it is obscene - beyond words.
Every system has it's problems. I've been in the business for 10 years, and I've had to do this only twice so far for any of my clients...I'd say that's not a bad track record, considering how many clients I serve. On the flip side, I've seen millions paid out in claims in a timely manner.

The first time, it turned out the person had lied on her application and she admitted it when confronted (interestingly, she was a lawyer...you'd think she would know better.) The second time, the person had a hernia that was discovered shortly after they applied and were accepted for coverage. The insurance company was well within their rights to investigate, as hernias can exist many years before people ever get them treated. The person could have decided to buy insurance just to get the hernia surgery paid for. Fortunately, the applicant had not lied on the application, and the fact that the condition had not been known about in advance was easy to prove with medical records.

I doubt Michael Moore was telling the whole story on the issue with the clerk deciding to deny coverage for cancer surgery.

IMO - it doesn't take a PHD to figure out how to make an appeal. If you don't have a broker who can help you, the only requirement is that you know how to read the appeal instructions on your EOB and follow the instructions. Is it too much to ask that our general population learn how to read and follow instructions?
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Old 07-30-2007, 10:32 AM   #60
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Every system has it's problems. I've been in the business for 10 years, and I've had to do this only twice so far for any of my clients...I'd say that's not a bad track record, considering how many clients I serve. On the flip side, I've seen millions paid out in claims in a timely manner.

The first time, it turned out the person had lied on her application and she admitted it when confronted (interestingly, she was a lawyer...you'd think she would know better.) The second time, the person had a hernia that was discovered shortly after they applied and were accepted for coverage. The insurance company was well within their rights to investigate, as hernias can exist many years before people ever get them treated. The person could have decided to buy insurance just to get the hernia surgery paid for. Fortunately, the applicant had not lied on the application, and the fact that the condition had not been known about in advance was easy to prove with medical records.

I doubt Michael Moore was telling the whole story on the issue with the clerk deciding to deny coverage for cancer surgery.

IMO - it doesn't take a PHD to figure out how to make an appeal. If you don't have a broker who can help you, the only requirement is that you know how to read the appeal instructions on your EOB and follow the instructions. Is it too much to ask that our general population learn how to read and follow instructions?
You have a vested interest to keep things as they are. You are in the industry. You should not respond here. You should recuse yourself from the discussion.

You are part of the problem.

Just kidding. But man nobody should go to the poor house if they get sick.
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