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Old 02-27-2008, 08:36 PM   #41
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...... and you would have exposed untold hundreds or even thousands of people to contagious tuberculosis.
That's already happening with the rampant illegal immigration into this country from TB ridden parts of the world - so what's one more TB carrier
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:37 PM   #42
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No mandates work really well until the taxpayers wind up not only having to pay your bill, but get sick themselves and have to pay for healthcare for themselves as well.
Maybe it's because it's late & I'm tired, but that statement makes no sense to me whatsoever.
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:38 PM   #43
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The best "mandate", of course, being a system funded by our taxes.
That one either.
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:57 PM   #44
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Last time I checked, you needed insurance on your car to drive it around.

While CA is more liberal with the lack of insurance, MA sent someone over to take your plates if your insurance lapsed.

I'm fine with people who choose not to buy health care insurance. Providing they agree to not seek any health care. If you cant afford a few hundred bucks a month for insurance, you sure as hell cant afford a five figure bill from a doctor or hospital.

I just have a hard time with folks who want to be independent freewheelers until they get a bad cough, then take the express cab to the emergency room with no ability/intention of paying the bill.

By the way, statistically thats a white person thats a US citizen.
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:04 PM   #45
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That one either.
Try again in the morning. I think you will understand both.
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Old 02-27-2008, 11:00 PM   #46
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So we mandate everyone to buy health insurance (privately or the govt run plan) - what do we do if they don't? Fine them? they're mostly relatively poor and don't pay any taxes anyway - I suppose you could take away their EIC (which is the only reason many even bother to take their W-2 to a preparer to have it filed).

Who is going to enforce these fines? - suppose we'll need a whole new federal bureaucracy just for that - of course they'll have appeal rights - and they will need Administrative Law Judges to decide those cases - and suppose in the end they don't pay the fines? Ya gonna put em in jail? Seize their (financed) Escalade? Deny them treatment next time they show up at the ER?

No, this whole thing about "mandates" is just a scheme to force those of us who are already providing for our own health care through private insurance companies to pay even more to support a new inefficient expensive federal "big government" bureaucracy.

And in the end, the E.R.'s will take care of them the same as now because they are mandated by the Fed Govt to do so.

Now of course we don't want poor people dying in the streets & illegal aliens spreading TB all around - so why don't we just call it what it is for these people (charity) & let the States run a separate federally & state funded "charity" health care system (on the cheap - no semi-private rooms even) for those who cannot provide for themselves - give them accessibility and affordability & if the quality happens to be a little less, so be it -

But leave me & my insurance company out of it.
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Old 02-27-2008, 11:08 PM   #47
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Last time I checked, you needed insurance on your car to drive it around.
You can buy a high quality counterfeit auto insurance card for about $25 bucks from the same vendors (one in every small town and many in cities) who will sell you a counterfeit Resident Alien Card for $50 bucks or somebody else's genuine birth certificate and social security card for about $800
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:33 AM   #48
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Oh, i'm sorry. I mistook this for a legitimate debate on the issues surrounding health care.

I'll let you get back to whatever the hell it is you're outraged about.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:58 AM   #49
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Oh, i'm sorry. I mistook this for a legitimate debate on the issues surrounding health care.

I'll let you get back to whatever the hell it is you're outraged about.
Well, I think you mischaracterize me as "outraged" -

disgusted, maybe - but "outraged"?, well, no not really

The point was brought up that we are required to buy insurance for our cars, as if that was a valid rationale for requiring everyone in the US to purchase health care insurance from either the govt or a private insurance company. Buying insurance for your car is a requirement for operating it on govt owned roadways. And there's lots of folks who ignore this requirement (or succesfully circumvent it via fraud insurance cards)

My point is that you can vote for the govt to "mandate" people do things all you want - in the end though, those who don't want to spend their money on it (if they have any) aren't going to - then the govt is put in the position of havng to enforce the "mandates" - thus creating more
govt. (Sorry to burst anyones bubble with the truth about "mandates")

Our system of fed govt (in my opinion) was deliberately designed to have limited powers (things like - natl defense, enforcement of contracts, immigration, regulating interstate commerce, etc) mucking around in the health care business is not one of them and creating a federal "national health care system" is a real stretch of the interstate commerce clause. People forget this (if they ever learned it). If people want a different kind of fed govt - (all-powerful, nanny, full of mandates for the people) they need to pass a new constitution.

(If you only want to "debate" with people who agree with you, that's your choice.)
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Old 02-28-2008, 04:07 PM   #50
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Eh, I only like debating people who are using actual facts rather than a bunch of anecdotal irritation.

The problem with healthcare is that there is too much profit being drawn out by too many layers of bureaucracy and overhead, that its unaffordable to most, and that people who need it the most cant get it.

The private sector has demonstrated its failure to execute. We spend too much and get too little. By a longshot.
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:35 PM   #51
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What facts would you like to debate?

The media & big-govt proponents want us all to debate "which plan is better" as though it's a "given" that both of them are better than our current situation which they have decided to call a "crisis" (another supposed "given").

I propose the following fact: We pretty much have "payers" & "non-payers" for health care in our society.

When you boil it all down, the various versions of Hillary/Obama/Edwards Care is designed to use the force of law to provide an Entitlement to the same access/quality to the "non-payers" in our society as the "payers" currently have.



There are pretty much only a few ways to do that
(1) increase the payers cost
(2) reduce the payers access/quantity/quality
(3) a combination of 1 & 2 above

The payers are already paying for the non-payers (& always will) - the issue is access/quantity/quality

Promises that these plans will (1) reduce the payers cost; AND (2) increase everybody's access/quantity - are just so-much "pie-in-the-sky" populist pandering for votes.
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Old 02-28-2008, 06:01 PM   #52
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To get back to my post of last night, I don't presume to speak for Insanity, but I believe the point he was trying to make is that for any system of insurance to work at the lowest total cost, you need to maximize the pool over which the risk is spread. That means we need to have the healthy and the unhealthy all in the same pool -- over time, everyone of us will migrate from the healthy to the unhealthy column. If we allow young, healthy people to opt out of the system unless and until they are hit by a truck and then they show up at the emergency room needing care, we will all bear a higher cost because they have not been paying into the system. Hillary Clinton has a very good argument on just this point.

I have posted before that I do not believe the Clinton "mandate" will work, because it is too difficult to determine who can "afford" health care but "chooses" not to buy it. In that respect, I think Obama's plan is superior if you are going to have a system that works through traditional health insurance. I believe that the best system is a tax funded, single government payer system. You achieve maximum risk spreading because everyone is in the pool. Unless you can avoid income tax, you cannot avoid paying for your share (yes, this is progressive, those of us who make more money pay more of the cost, and rightfully so. Just like any other government provided service.). My post was meant to point out that a tax funded system is therefore the ultimate "mandate". I also believe it eliminates the insurance company overhead component of the total health care cost. You have said you want you and your insurance company left out of this system. I can understand you, but why do you want to enrich your insurance company?
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:48 PM   #53
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DW and I were discussing this topic this morning.

I think Gumby has it right in terms of risk-sharing.

Could be funded by a national sales tax and/or value added tax; doesn't necessarily have to be payroll taxes.

I envision an everyone-from-birth-to-death 'basic' healthcare plan, that could be supplemented by private plans (something like Medicare). For instance, eyeglasses would be covered, but Lasik would not (or maybe it would... figure the annual costs of glasses/lenses vs. one-time Lasik. Anyway, you get the idea...) As an aside, this is how I think Social Security should be - basic, no one goes homeless or malnourished, but it doesn't guarantee a 4/2/2 home and steak; maybe a single bed in a dorm room and rice and beans.

IMO, healthcare in the US is too focussed on treating folks once their already sick, with too little emphasis on staying healthy in the first place.

Obviously, many details to be worked out, but I like the overall picture.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:12 PM   #54
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RE: Gumby & TickTock posts (I'm a bit more receptive to some of your thoughts TickTock):
You can look at any system the same way - it still boils down to socialistic collectivism (and if I may repeat myself "populist pandering for votes") - which is not what this country is supposed to be about or what made this country great IMHO

Perhaps we should have the fed govt pool all of our pension monies, 401K's, IRA's & Roth's & dole them out equally to people in their old age according to their need and regardless of their contribution (of course that would mean no ER)

From my POV - the US should continue to focus on free-market solutions to the glitches in our health care systems - with a basic no-frills safety net for those who, for whatever reason, slip through the cracks.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:19 PM   #55
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Could be funded by a national sales tax and/or value added tax; doesn't necessarily have to be payroll taxes.
I'm afraid I could support a natl sales tax or vat only if they abolished all payroll taxes -

it would seem to me to be a bad idea to give the fed govt a new mechanism to tax individuals without getting rid of an existing mechanism.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:29 PM   #56
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Unless you can avoid income tax, you cannot avoid paying for your share
I don't know about you, but I spend a bit of time avoiding (legally) income tax when/where I can.
And there are quite a few folks who effectively pay none (many of whom are the same non-payers in our health care system)

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(yes, this is progressive, those of us who make more money pay more of the cost, and rightfully so.
"rightfully so" you say?
I (& quite a few others) think the progressive income tax is morally wrong and un-American. Progressive taxation punishes success & productivity.

To hear the word "progressive" referenced in regard to health care costs just goes to show you how political this issue really is and one of the reasons I take it with a grain whenever I hear someone use the term "health care crisis"
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