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Old 10-25-2012, 01:59 PM   #121
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One of the acronyms on the bodybuilding forum is IIFYM, meaning "if it fits your macros". The suggestion is that if you get 80% or so of your calories from "healthy" foods, the other 20% or so can be about anything. Of course, this is mostly a very active, and somewhat "younger" population than this forum.

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Nutrition - Bodybuilding.com Forums
I tried to get something out of the (many) bodybuilding websites but concluded that theose people are "special" in a way that I am not. I am unsure whether it has to do with metabolism or body make-up or what but it just isn't me. Now, having said that, I completely agree with what is being said... and they should be listened to. In fact, they (as a group) are probably the most knowledgable lay people around on this issue. Nevertheless, I kinda drifted away.

In any event, they (again as a group) can eat many things that I cannot --seemingly without the consequences that befall me.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:12 PM   #122
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We keep ignoring it but there is that pesky fourth food group. My weakness has to do with 12 year old Single Malt and the juice of the Agave plant.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:22 PM   #123
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How do you manage to eat 170 gm protein per day? I heard a fairly convincing speech by a protein researcher than one should get at least 30 gm protein per meal. I am down to about 2 meals/day, but stuffing in that much protein at a meal seems really hard. Not too bad if I have steak and eggs for breakfast, but even a 3 egg cheese omelet falls short. Since your intake is almost 3x my minimum, how do you do it?

Ha
That's my "ideal", per the info in that blurb I posted. Tried looking at some past data, where I tracked intake fairly closely, but it has disappeared from the software. Too long ago...

I do drink a protein shake on weight workout days, with 16oz milk and a scoop of powder, for 68gms.

Some examples, though:

Egg - 19g
Burger - 24g
Chicken breast - 27g
Tuna - 42g (5oz can)
Milk - 8g

Not very good at documenting what I eat... My weight is fairly steady around 170, so I must, on average, eat about the right amount of food. Could still use some improved body composition, though...
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:26 PM   #124
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I tried to get something out of the (many) bodybuilding websites but concluded that those people are "special" in a way that I am not. I am unsure whether it has to do with metabolism or body make-up or what but it just isn't me. Now, having said that, I completely agree with what is being said... and they should be listened to. In fact, they (as a group) are probably the most knowledgable lay people around on this issue. Nevertheless, I kinda drifted away.

In any event, they (again as a group) can eat many things that I cannot --seemingly without the consequences that befall me.
Again, many are younger, and are pushing around very big weights, which hides a multitude of sins. I would argue, though, that many aren't as knowledgeable as one would hope. The term for it on that particular bodybuilding forum is "bro science"...
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:33 PM   #125
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Again, many are younger, and are pushing around very big weights, which hides a multitude of sins. I would argue, though, that many aren't as knowledgeable as one would hope. The term for it on that particular bodybuilding forum is "bro science"...
Perhaps not. Not being a "practioner" I am not qualified to judge... Hmmmm... maybe that's why I wasn't sucked in. "bro science"? I like it.
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Old 10-25-2012, 02:47 PM   #126
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Perhaps not. Not being a "practioner" I am not qualified to judge... Hmmmm... maybe that's why I wasn't sucked in. "bro science"? I like it.
Well, I am a forum member, though not super active, but most of the posters are 20-40 and lifting heavy and often.

Or, they could be 14yo girls from Missoula...
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Old 10-25-2012, 03:45 PM   #127
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Here is what I ate yesterday -- a pretty typical day.

Meal-1.JPG

Meal-2.JPG

Oh! And I drank water with dinner (forgot to enter that).
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:05 PM   #128
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OK, I am going to try more fat and less carbs. This morning I had two scrambled eggs with a bit of 1/2&1/2 mixed in, cheese, and some ham. Coffee, of course. For lunch I ate salmon, red peppers and a slice of cheese. One glass of wine, of course.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:18 PM   #129
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Here is what I ate yesterday -- a pretty typical day.
Oh! And I drank water with dinner (forgot to enter that).
I think I'd be hallucinating on a diet like that.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:26 PM   #130
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Getting back to basics, can anyone explain the history of the recommendations to go low-fat? Was there any real research, was it a fad, bad research?

I'm curious how we get to these conclusions, just as I'm curious why so many kids had their tonsils removed in the 60's, and we rarely do that today.

I've said this before, but the only thing I feel pretty confident in is that refined sugars and refined carbs should be limited (how much, heck, I dunno!). I just don't see any reliable source anywhere saying that people lost weight by eating sugar, white bread and pasta. It's the only thing that seems consistent. Beyond that, I'm confused.

But I'm willing to listen to the idea that higher levels of fat are not the bugaboo we have been told. Seems like a lot of people have gone to higher fat levels, and their numbers look good, and they claim to feel better. But DW still freaks out a bit at the idea of some of these fat levels. I've come to realize that if you apply some self-control, you really don't end up eating as much of them, because they are satisfying. DW needs more convincing.

I'm trying to lose some weight, I've done it before, it wasn't so hard, but it took diligence, and I let it creep back on. I'm back to some basics like eating slowly, taste each bite, put the fork down between bites. If I take the time to think about it, and eat slowly, I find that I can be satisfied on a smaller amount of food. If I'm not thinking about it, I just gulp down more than I really need.

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Old 10-25-2012, 04:30 PM   #131
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I think I'd be hallucinating on a diet like that.
It was quality Scotch though.

We are having Liver & Onions for dinner tonight. I will try to remember to measure all the ingredients and we'll see what that looks like.

(Actually, I was kind of surprised at the calorie count because, after dinner, I had felt that I had eaten way too much.)
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Old 10-25-2012, 05:46 PM   #132
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Getting back to basics, can anyone explain the history of the recommendations to go low-fat? Was there any real research, was it a fad, bad research?-ERD50
Gary Taubes covers this pretty thoroughly in his two books, and also some of the articles he has written. Here is a short article that contains an interview with Taubes where he discusses why the old advice to eat a high-carb, low-fat diet is seriously flawed:

What if the low-fat craze was based on flawed thinking? | NutritionResearchCenter.org
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:05 PM   #133
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The China Study was one culprit, still referenced, but somewhat if not thoroughly debunked. And I think much of it is political correctness mixed with environmental "concerns" etc., i.e. anti-meat. And maybe some good PR from the grain lobby...
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:15 PM   #134
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And maybe some good PR from the grain lobby...
Assisted by the full force of the US Government -- remember, the only purpose for the USDA (United States Department of Agriculture) is to promote the sale and use of agricultural products. There is very little fat in most crops. And even when there was, the company line would be that Saturated fats are bad and vegetable oil is good -- Crisco & Margarine anyone.
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:19 PM   #135
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A lot of this is individual. I dropped to 50g or less of carbs/day and dropped 30 pounds to 162 (5'11"). I have gradually added some carbs back in up to around 100-150g/day and am steady at 162. I don't really want to go much lower. I eat a bit of old favs like rice and potatoes, an apple a day, etc. For others that might be problematic. You need to start out aggressively and then see what works for you.
My experience was very similar to yours. I cut way back on carbs at first (mostly by eliminating bread, pasta, baked goods, crackers, chips, pizza, etc) and I dropped 20+ lbs. right away, getting down to about 150-153 lbs. A lot of the 20 lbs. came right off of my gut/middle, so I was very pleased with that! I didn't want to lose any more weight, so I started adding back some carbs from "real food" (potatoes, sweet potatoes, some other starchy veggies). I'll have an apple or a banana occasionally, not often. I also eat some wild rice, and a little corn. That seemed to work for me, as my weight now stays very stable (never over 153 anymore), and I don't really even have to think about what I can/can't eat now (and I don't restrict the quantity of food that I eat at all). I try to eat at least some protein at every meal, and I eat as much healthy fat (coconut oil, butter/ghee, olive oil) as I want.

I have come to think of the way I eat now as a "real food" eating plan, and not a low-carb diet. Eliminating the processed junk foods was the real key for me (anything that comes in a box or a package with a list of ingredients on the side). Eating vegetables (even the so-called starchy vegetables) doesn't seem to be a problem for me, so I now eat whatever vegetables I want.

Kurt Harris has a good, brief summary of the type of diet I eat now here:
Archevore - Archevore Diet
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:02 PM   #136
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And this was today's meals:

Meal-1.JPG

Meal-2.JPG

Here is the Liver & Onion recipe -- it also included some other stuff difficult to measure; Tamari (a Soy Sauce), Molasses, a Splash or so of Jack Daniels, etc.

Liver & Onions.JPG
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:08 PM   #137
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Wow, 900+ calories of liver and onions? You sure must like them.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:15 PM   #138
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And this was today's meals:


Here is the Liver & Onion recipe -- it also included some other stuff difficult to measure; Tamari (a Soy Sauce), Molasses, a Splash or so of Jack Daniels, etc.
535 gms liver. That's a quivering slab for sure. You are liverman!

BTW- What is that coconut flour you used? Where do you buy it?

Ha
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:33 PM   #139
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BTW- What is that coconut flour you used? Where do you buy it?
I had to go look. It was Organic Coconut Flour :: Bob\'s Red Mill Natural Foods but there are other brands.

Bob's Mill brand can be found at Safeway, Wal Mart and, of course, Whole Foods, and other stores.

Another good wheat flour substitute (well, non-gluten) is Almond Meal/Flour :: Bob's Red Mill Natural Foods.

Or go to the website at Bobs Red Mill Natural Foods for the whole product line.
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Old 10-25-2012, 08:24 PM   #140
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Getting back to basics, can anyone explain the history of the recommendations to go low-fat? Was there any real research, was it a fad, bad research?
I would start with Dr. Lustig's talk on Sugar. The first 30 minutes or so are a discussion about how we came to regard fat consumption as the source of weight gain and cardiovascular disease. I don't accept anybody as the be-all and end-all in this discussion (years of eating high trans-fat margarine because it was better for me than butter taught to be skeptical), but Lustig certainly has good credentials and some science to backup up what he believes.

Essentially, he explains the move to low-fat as coming from errors in logic, questionable studies, and, of course, politics. The middle part of the talk is very technical with lots of biochemistry, but I think an intelligent lay-person can understand the gist what he is saying if not always the details behind it. The last third is easier to understand and will probably make you want to hand out fruit instead of candy for trick-or-treat. Fruit contains the antidote to sugar - fiber.

Two things that struck me from his talk are; 1.) Ingested sugar in the form of fructose gets made into fat. A high sugar diet is a high fat diet. And 2.) When the body metabolizes fructose it somehow short circuits the process by which the digestive organs tell our brain we are full. Thus, we eat a lot more than we have to.

As I understand this, a high sugar diet is worse than a high fat diet since sugar gets converted into body fat just as ingested fat can do, but the sugar digestion (unlike fat digestion) does not signal the brain that we are full, so we end up eating even more and get even fatter.
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