Stupid diet tricks

[HFWR]

This is true but not in the sense of obeying Newton's Third Law -- that requires a "closed System" and the human body is hardly that.

It is true in the sense that if your body stores those calories as body fat, you will gain weight. However, if your body uses those calories as fuel, you will not. That is what Taubes' book title is all about -- "Good Calories, Bad Calories."

If you eat the proper food, calories don't count.

For me personally (and YMMV) "proper" food does not include most carbohydrates.

Nope...

Note that I didn't mention thermodynamics, because I agree that the human body is not a closed system. But you cannot consume 3000 kcal, and expend 2000 kcal, and not gain weight. If you're using calories as fuel, you're not at a calorie surplus...

Good Calories, Bad Calories: The Mythology of Obesity, or The Mythology of Gary Taubes? » Weightology

Whole Health Source: The Carbohydrate Hypothesis of Obesity: a Critical Examination

Thin Body of Evidence: Why I Have Doubts about Gary Taubes’s Why We Get Fat | Cross-Check, Scientific American Blog Network

Skeptic » eSkeptic » Wednesday, January 5th, 2011

 

[RonBoyd]

Nope...

Yeah, I am aware of these articles but am not dissuaded. I eat more (volume-wise) than I ever did while gaining weight -- sometimes to the point of great discomfort. The only difference between the two periods is the type of food. Well, that I have never, in three years, felt that "hungery" go-get-a-snack thing sending me to a bag of carbohydrates for relief.

But this is truly a YMMV thing and I am willing to concede that calories do, of course, count... just not in the manner you are championing.

 

[haha]

Nope...

Note that I didn't mention thermodynamics, because I agree that the human body is not a closed system. But you cannot consume 3000 kcal, and expend 2000 kcal, and not gain weight. If you're using calories as fuel, you're not at a calorie surplus...

Whole Health Source: The Carbohydrate Hypothesis of Obesity: a Critical Examination

I am not an expert in this, other than to say that many of my numbers went better, but LDL went worse on a high saturated fat regime. I also lost meaningful weight, and I never even knew I was fat. I think it is true that eating high protein and fat, you tend to get less hungry. The food can be very good, but it doesn't support crazy hunger like higher carb meals do in some people, certainly true of me when I ate that way.

But I have talked several times to Taubes and to Stephan, and although Gary must have 20 years on S.G., most of us would much rather look like Gary. Stephan seems consumed by his issues with Gary, while Gary has left this far behind him. Maybe all those potatoes and roots make a person a bit peevish?

Also, Stephan's idea that obesity is because food is palatable is nuts. I never eat boring food, and I weigh less than in my sophomore year in high school. I also kind of get a laugh from his evil food scientist idea.

Ha

 

[RonBoyd]

... and I never even knew I was fat.

Same here and, worse, I didn't even believe when told I was. (My Cardiologist had to suggest it several times before it started to soak in.)

 

[braumeister]

I think it is true that eating high protein and fat, you tend to get less hungry.

I'm probably misinterpreting you, and I'm sure you know this, but just in case someone sees this in isolation and gets the wrong idea, high protein consumption is not a good idea. The ideal (at least for many of us) seems to be high fat, low carbohydrates, and moderate protein.

If you eat too much protein, the body converts the excess into carbs, so you're not doing yourself as much good as you may think you are.

 

[RonBoyd]

The ideal (at least for many of us) seems to be high fat, low carbohydrates, and moderate protein.

If you eat too much protein, the body converts the excess into carbs, so you're not doing yourself as much good as you may think you are.

This is very true and important... and easily overlooked. I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in the thread but if not, I meant to. (I believe it was in the "Five Mistakes" post.)

 

[haha]

I'm probably misinterpreting you, and I'm sure you know this, but just in case someone sees this in isolation and gets the wrong idea, high protein consumption is not a good idea. The ideal (at least for many of us) seems to be high fat, low carbohydrates, and moderate protein.

If you eat too much protein, the body converts the excess into carbs, so you're not doing yourself as much good as you may think you are.

Well, I guess high and moderate are terms of art. I try to eat ~30 gms protein/meal, and I eat 2 or 3 meals per day.

Ha

 

[NW-Bound]

I try to eat ~30 gms protein/meal, and I eat 2 or 3 meals per day.

I am fortunate that I was never really fat (BMI of 25 max), but have been interested in reducing weight by eating less carb, more meat and fat.

Since I never had to care about portions or measuring or weighting my food, I wonder what the above protein intake would be. So, I looked up on the Web, and one site said that a 6-oz of lean beef contains 50g of protein. So, you would eat about 1/2-lb of beef a day. Is that about right?

 

[W2R]

Well, I guess high and moderate are terms of art. I try to eat ~30 gms protein/meal, and I eat 2 or 3 meals per day.

Ha

So, that would be 60-90 grams of protein/day.

To me that is not especially high at all. During the past week, I averaged 74 grams of protein/day (and 1338 calories/day). I am one of the unenlightened in that I am not intentionally eating high protein or fat, no big steaks for this gal. I am just watching my calories, exercising, and avoiding processed foods.

In keeping with the latter, I am beginning to eliminate artificial sweeteners.

 

[HFWR]

Yeah, I am aware of these articles but am not dissuaded. I eat more (volume-wise) than I ever did while gaining weight -- sometimes to the point of great discomfort. The only difference between the two periods is the type of food. Well, that I have never, in three years, felt that "hungery" go-get-a-snack thing sending me to a bag of carbohydrates for relief.

But this is truly a YMMV thing and I am willing to concede that calories do, of course, count... just not in the manner you are championing.

The only thing I am "championing" is that (a) it is impossible to gain weight without a calorie surplus, and (b) it is impossible to lose weight without a calorie deficit. No argument at all that body composition and overall health are affected by "what" we eat...

As for all the authors and internet experts, it's not all or nothing in regards to carbs, satiety, etc. Eating too many empty calories in the form of sugar (carbs) messes with our metabolism and screws up our sense of when we're hungry or "full". In that sense, I think both Taubes and Guyenet are on to something...

Eat real food, not too much...

 

[mh]

Ok so you are me today... You were running late this morning and didn't bring your lunch to work, so you are forced to grab something from a fast food place nearby... What are you ordering?

I just go to a grocery store and get a few carrots a couple pieces of fruit and a roll or yogurt cup. It's just as fast as going to McDonald's. but I do that because I enjoy it more than a Big Mac.

 

[haha]

So, that would be 60-90 grams of protein/day.

To me that is not especially high at all. During the past week, I averaged 74 grams of protein/day (and 1338 calories/day). I am one of the unenlightened in that I am not intentionally eating high protein or fat, no big steaks for this gal. I am just watching my calories, exercising, and avoiding processed foods.

In keeping with the latter, I am beginning to eliminate artificial sweeteners.

I think that is about where I am.Yesterday I had about 35gms total of ground turkey patty and eggs for a late breakfast at about 10:00. At 4 I had some salmon salad, I think roughly 35 gm. At 6:30 I rowed 550 cals worth, then had a little cucumber and sour cream. Then I got a phone call and talked about 40' while I hoped the rain might stop, but it didn't and I was hungry again so I set out for the Safeway which had chiclen wings really cheap. I stopped and picked up some coffee filters at the Amazon dropbox, and by the time I got home it was about 9:00, I fixed some sautéed brussels sprouts and TJ mixed salad and chicken wings, which took forever. I finally started eating a little before 10. I was famished, so I ate 5 wings, but no sauce other than a rub of ground chiles and some ginger. I don't know how much protein is in 5 medium wings, but I think I went a bit over 100gm total for the day. But frequently I have only 2 meals, and erach is about the same size as yesterday's.

I don't know how many calories I eat, or really the amount of anything other than protein and I have a pretty good diea that I never go over 50mg or so daily total carbs.

Like NW points out, it is a piece of cake to get adequate protein eating beef, but fish and some other protein sources don't seem to be as concentrated.

Ha

 

[RonBoyd]

This is one of the places that I mentioned it earlier:

How to Add More Fat to Your Low Carb Diet for Nutritional Ketosis

Is monitoring protein and increasing fat the answer to low carb weight loss stalls? It is worth a shot and it can’t hurt to try, as long we make sure to eat the highest quality fats. Read my article about which fats are healthy to eat here: Which Fats Are Healthy at GrassFedGirl.com. Please make sure and eat the right fats or you will not succeed long term on a low carb diet.

Protein free for all:
I came into low carb and paleo in the summer of 2010, and have always eaten plenty of protein and fat without worrying about percentages. This lifestyle has kept my weight stable, tamed my autoimmune condition and helped me regulate my blood sugar but I would love to lose a few extra pounds (who wouldn’t?). I have seen Paleo and low carb work wonders in my clients as well, but some people need extra help to fine-tune their low carb results.

Keto-what?
In their book, Phinney and Volek instruct readers to restrict protein and carbs to lose weight and become keto-adapted. Keto adaptation is where the body burns fat instead of relying on glucose (carbs) for fuel. The authors think that if we eat too much protein it will also turn to sugar, preventing the body from becoming keto-adapted andburning its own fat as fuel.

What should my protein intake be?
What does limiting protein mean in practical terms and how much do we actually need daily to get into nutritional ketosis? This chart from A New Atkins for a New You, should help:

 

[haha]

This is one of the places that I mentioned it earlier:

How to Add More Fat to Your Low Carb Diet for Nutritional Ketosis

Looking at her chart, for my height I eat fairly low protein, though to me I feel like I am stuffing it in.

One thing I would like to say, although the internet communities have apparently gone all-in on the eat more fat idea, a very significant minority of low carbers have seen worrisome rises in LDL and LDL-P. Jimmy Moore kind of talks around his own case, but he has said that his LDL is now very high. Most of these people who are commercially committed have various reasons why that does not matter, but I am not the only one who is not convinced. Lipidologist Tom Dayspring MD says LDL-P is the most important artery disease chemistry, period, case closed. He presents evidence, though I have not tried to analyze it. My low carb cardiologist is in this camp. MD researcher Ron Kraus is currently doing an NIH funded study to see what factors are involved. He already has an earlier study that definitively shows that, for example, if you eat a high saturated fat diet, the cource of the protein matters in how it affects your LDL. They used dairly fat, and lean meat protein from either beef or chicken. They found that beef protein in the context of high saturated fat (at least high saturated dairy fat) makes blood lipid changes that are considered negative, relative to lean chicken protein with high dairy fat. Interestingly, this study was funded by some beef marketing association. Who knows what this means, but it likely means something, and we are not going to hear much about it from the internet gurus and website/podcast rockstars who suddenly for the first time in their lives can buy their kids new clothes with the money generated from riding this trend.

This is our health at stake, and I personally am wary of bandwagon effects and enthusiasms of naive and or unscrupulous actors.

I dropped my risk according to LDL-P from 75th percentile to 50th, merely by doing long slow rowing almost every day, at the rate of about 1000km/5 or 6 months. I also walk everywhere I go, or walk and bus.

I am now trying phase 2 of this experiment in LDL-P lowering, added to phase 1 exercise. Basically, it was easier for me to cut way back on red meat than to banish dairy, so I tend to have fish or poultry everday except Friday, when I eat with my girlfriend who is a full-on carnivore and will rarely make fish, or we might go out to a sports bar where tasty bunless double patty burgers make my weekly red meat ration. I am often pretty well starved when we get there, so I am ready for eating this big burger. I don't know if it matters, but I do also avoid dairy on this day.

Ha

 

[RonBoyd]

This is my favorite way to get extra Fat without extra Protein:



I defy you to tell, by taste, that it is not the standard high-sugar dessert you remember as a child. I made it for two servings but that may be a bit much for most so I could easily be three servings.

 

[RonBoyd]

One thing I would like to say, although the internet communities have apparently gone all-in on the eat more fat idea, a very significant minority of low carbers have seen worrisome rises in LDL and LDL-P. ...

You make a good point, particularly about the "bandwagon." I am becoming a little leery since it seems everyone is in it for the bucks.

Anyway, I don't know about the LDL thing. These are my Lipid results (I understand that "normal" is between 0 and 99 -- VLDL 5-40):


.........................LDL..........VLDL
October 2009........95............27
May 2009.............62............22
January 2011........87............18
June 2011 (Lost or strayed)
December 2011.....65............18
June 2012............67............10

I don't seem to be varying very much. Nevertheless, this is a concern that I will keep my eyes on.

 

[NW-Bound]

I guess I am fortunate that I like all kinds of food: veggies of all kinds whether green or starchy, meat and fish and shellfish of all kinds, and carbs too.

I can eat veggie all day like a rabbit, and will have to stop because I am not getting anywhere with it (in terms of satiation). I can eat steak every day, if it would be good for me. I can eat a lot more fish and shell fish, if they are less expensive. I am not crazy about sweets, but like potato, and bread.

So, I can vary my diet a lot to make it more healthy, but have not had a real need. All these threads make me realize that I am fortunate (knock on wood). But I need to pay closer attention to my blood work to take corrective action before it becomes a problem.

By the way, both my wife and I passed the colonoscopy exams with flying colors. I attribute that to the amount of veggie that we eat. It occurred to me that green veggies are actually expensive compared to carbs and most meats. No wonder poor people have health problems.

I learned from this forum that the new thinking is that animal fat is good for you. Hallelujah! I need to check out grass-fed fatty cuts. Or is it that grass-fed cattle cannot get fat, and its tallow is not at all abundant?

 

[haha]

You make a good point, particularly about the "bandwagon." I am becoming a little leery since it seems everyone is in it for the bucks.

Anyway, I don't know about the LDL thing. These are my Lipid results (I understand that "normal" is between 0 and 99 -- VLDL 5-40):


.........................LDL..........VLDL
October 2009........95............27
May 2009.............62............22
January 2011........87............18
June 2011 (Lost or strayed)
December 2011.....65............18
June 2012............67............10

I don't seem to be varying very much. Nevertheless, this is a concern that I will keep my eyes on.

Ron, I believe that these numbers are excellent. I think it is only some people who experience the adverse effect, but I definitely did, in spite of all the other lipid and A1c and all that getting better.

Even if I live a very long time, I will be dead before there is definitive scientific information about this, hence my plan of just experimenting on myself and not waiting for the word from above.

Ha

 

[donheff]

Going back to the original topic... I think eating meat and vegetables instead of processed foods makes perfect sense, but what would someone like myself do? Even at 31 I still eat like a 5 year old. I dislike most vegetables. All I ever really eat in the form of vegetables are canned green beans, sweet peas, and corn. I've tried forcing myself to choke down tomatoes, cucumbers, broccoli, etc. but with no luck. I'm very much a meat and potatoes guy.

I am/was just like you and a LCHF diet seems designed for me. I used to eat tons of candies and pasta, potatoes, rice, cereals. I slowly gained 30 pounds at about a pound a year from 30-64. Now I eat almost no veggies but lots of salad and a apple a day. Other than that it is bacon and eggs, ham and cheese sandwiches (with Pepperidge Farm Carb Style bread), chicken, fish, steaks, sausage... I love it and have dropped 33 pounds.

 

[RonBoyd]

One thing I would like to say, although the internet communities have apparently gone all-in on the eat more fat idea, a very significant minority of low carbers have seen worrisome rises in LDL and LDL-P.

Something bothered me about that statement and I have been struggling for the last couple hours on it. However, my mind is, apparently, still somewhat intact because I finally remembered. Since LDL was not on my Radar, I kinda skipped over this part of an article I linked to in an earlier Post here.

Dana Gets Medical Tests What a Low Carb Diet Has Done To My Blood Work

LDL: 111. Again, some of you may think that’s high. I’ll go into that in a moment.

VLDL: 6. The form says that anything under 50 is good. I’d say 6 is well within the healthy range.

About that LDL: It’s not much talked about, but LDL is not measured directly. Apparently it can be done, but it’s expensive, so instead LDL is calculated using something called the Friedewald Equation. The equation goes like this: Total Cholesterol – (HDL + Triglycerides/5) = LDL. This is reportedly pretty accurate for people with average blood work.

But see that part about triglycerides/5? When triglycerides get under 100, as they so often do on a low carbohydrate diet, one-fifth of that small number becomes quite a small number indeed. (In my case, just 6.4.) This throws off the equation, resulting in artificially elevated LDL values. Indeed, at a previous visit my doc commented on my LDL being a little high. I said “Yeah, but look at my triglycerides. You know and I know that I could lower my LDL by raising my trigs.” She laughed and said, “Bad idea.”

A Google search gave me citations to back up what she is saying.

 

[haha]

Something bothered me about that statement and I have been struggling for the last couple hours on it. However, my mind is, apparently, still somewhat intact because I finally remembered. Since LDL was not on my Radar, I kinda skipped over this part of an article I linked to in an earlier Post here.

Dana Gets Medical Tests What a Low Carb Diet Has Done To My Blood Work





A Google search gave me citations to back up what she is saying.

Well, I'd say that is marvelous for Dana, but i don't see what it might have to do with some others who are affected differently.

Ha

 

[RonBoyd]

Well, I'd say that is marvelous for Dana, but i don't see what it might have to do with some others who are affected differently.

That could, actually, be said just about everything in this thread.

However, you are correct. I need to be more concerned about the effects of a LCHF diet on bad cholesterol... or more aware anyway. (which, when I say it that way, sounds like the argument that has been leveled against Dr. Atkins for 30 years.) I will, in my leisure (when I find some), try to look up some of the Studies you referred to. Thank you for the "heads up."

 

[eytonxav]

I've never heard anyone in the body building community get concerned about too much protein. The rule of thumb for most of them is 1-1.5/gm per lb of body weight. While I've tried to increase my protein to add some muscle, consuming even 1 gm per lb of body weight is a major struggle for me. Perhaps if I went to five meals per day and supplemented that with some protein shakes I could achieve 1 gm/lb of body weight per day.

Regarding adding extra fat, I have the same concern as Ha raised on negatively affecting LDL and triglycerides. While this may not happen to everyone, it does to me.

 

[RonBoyd]

I will, in my leisure (when I find some), try to look up some of the Studies you referred to.

Or perhaps I should take the lazy way out and let Jimmy Moore research that for me seeing as how he has a big headstart:

6-Month Lipid Panel Update On My Nutritional Ketosis N=1 Experiment « Jimmy Moore's Livin' La Vida Low Carb Blog

The answer is out there and I’m bound and determined to uncover it for my book next year.

But this is more than about some book I’m writing…this is my life.

or even better, wait for NUSI to find the answers.

Life is so confusing. However will I survive it?

 

[donheff]

Regarding adding extra fat, I have the same concern as Ha raised on negatively affecting LDL and triglycerides. While this may not happen to everyone, it does to me.

I have been reading as much as I can and have concluded that LCHF diets may raise LDL in some people. But, if you are one of those people and, at the same time, are one of the people who can maintain a healthy weight without constant hunger on a LCHF diet I would ask so what? The health advantages of healthy weight versus overweight or obesity are dramatic. The health advantages of low LDL are comparatively small (certainly in people who do not already have CHD). I, for one, wouldn't worry much at all about the LDL. For those who believe the high LDL to be a fearful condition, eat LCHF and take statins. Unless you have kidney breakdown the side effects of the statins are going to be much less than the side effects of obesity.

On the other hand, if you can achieve and maintain similar weight loss on something like an Ornish or Mediterranean diet, and do so without constant hunger, go for it and see how your cholesterol works out. It seems to me that weight management is the higher goal and people should look for practical solutions, not unachievable theoretical ideals.