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Old 05-21-2014, 03:18 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
DW insisted on fat free organic milk until "we" noticed how much sugar it has.

I didn't realize there was an unsweetened 0g version, we'll have to look for it to try.
I don't drink almond or coconut milk straight, so I can't comment on whether or not it's that good in a glass. I use it in my breakfast concoction, cook with it occasionally, and rarely add a little to my coffee. That said, the unsweetened is good for all of it.

And yes, fat-free dairy has a looooooot of sugar used to make up for the lack of milkfat, which is naturally sweet. I don't take in a lot of dairy as is. On the average day, just a serving of full-fat cottage cheese at breakfast and a splash of heavy cream with my coffee... I do like aged cheeses too, but those are more of a treat.

When I was in my 20s, I did everything fat-free. I cringe when I think about how much sugar I was taking in, even though I skipped the soda and such...
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:30 PM   #102
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I avoid almost all sugar for breakfast: 3 egg omelet and black coffee. Sometimes I add some sausage and often my omelet contains ham or bacon bits (real bacon chunks). Keeps me happy until lunchtime...

The omelet does have a pinch of cheese in it which does have a bit of sugar (lactose, which is a disaccharide of glucose and galactose).
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:51 PM   #103
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...

And yes, fat-free dairy has a looooooot of sugar used to make up for the lack of milkfat, which is naturally sweet. ...
? A looooooot? How do you figure that? There's no sugar added to skim milk. Though, eliminating the ~ 3.5% fat means everything else is 3.5% more (percentage multiple, not percentage points_ - so x1.035) to make up that volume.

According to this source for one:

Calories in Milk: A Nutritional Comparison of Milks With Different Percentages of Fat

About 11 gm sugar versus 12 gm. Not a looooooot, is it?

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Old 05-21-2014, 04:02 PM   #104
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? A looooooot? How do you figure that? There's no sugar added to skim milk. Though, eliminating the ~ 3.5% fat means everything else is 3.5% more (percentage multiple, not percentage points_ - so x1.035) to make up that volume.

According to this source for one:

Calories in Milk: A Nutritional Comparison of Milks With Different Percentages of Fat

About 11 gm sugar versus 12 gm. Not a looooooot, is it?

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The average American consumes around 22.2 teaspoons of added sugar every day, and both the World Health Organization and the American Heart Association (AHA) note that we should really be eating a fraction of that amount. The AHA says that adult women should get 5 teaspoons (20 grams) of sugar per day, adult men 9 teaspoons (36 grams), and children 3 teaspoons (12 grams). For comparison, a can of soda can have 40 grams, or about 10 teaspoons of sugar.
Is it?

Your Recommended Sugar Intake: Less Than a Soda Per Day | Rodale News
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Old 05-21-2014, 05:27 PM   #105
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Is it? ...
I meant in relative terms, not absolute (12 gm is significant in absolute terms). I don't see 12 gm versus 11 gm as 'a looooooot'. In the context, I took it as a relative statement of full fat versus fat-free milk:

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...

And yes, fat-free dairy has a looooooot of sugar used to make up for the lack of milkfat, which is naturally sweet. ...
That sure sounded to me like he is saying that sugar is added to fat-free dairy. That's not the case with milk at least. Maybe ice cream or some other 'dairy product'? I dunno.

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Old 05-21-2014, 06:35 PM   #106
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Some more data (starting to stray from sugary drinks, but not too far...):

Milk And Cream Nutrition

All information is for a one cup (8 ounce) serving. For the creams, calorie counts are also given for a tablespoon measure for anyone who puts more like a tablespoon rather than a cup of cream in their coffee.

Heavy (also whipping) cream: 821 calories; 88.06g fat; 6.64g carbs; 4.88g protein (1tbsp=51 calories)
Coffee (table) cream also called light cream: 468 calories; 46.34g fat; 8.78g carbs; 6.48g protein (1 tbsp=29 calories)
Half & Half: 315 calories; 27.83g fat; 10.41g carbs; 7.16g protein (1tbsp=20 calories)
Whole milk: 146 calories; 7.93g fat; 11.03g carbs; 7.86g protein (1tbsp=9 calories)
2% milk: 122 calories; 4.81g fat; 11.42g carbs; 8.05g protein
1% milk: 102 calories; 2.37g fat; 12.18g carbs; 8.22g protein
Non-fat/skim milk: 85.8 calories; 0.4g fat; 11.9g carbs; 8.4g protein

Half And Half,Cream, Or Milk - What's In Your Coffee - And What's The Difference?

And yes, the carbs in milk are basically lactose sugar.
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:57 PM   #107
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I think the issue is that when people gave up whole milk products they were replaced mainly with low fat products that were flavored with added sugar to make them tastier. Example, children often drink chocolate milk, loaded with added sugar, rather than plain whole milk. Adults happily consume sugar laden fruit flavored low fat yogurt rather than whole milk plain yogurt. Sugar was and is used to replace the desirable qualities that naturally occurring fat adds to foods.


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Old 05-22-2014, 12:12 PM   #108
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Obviously, when you lower the fat content of milk, the other macros, carbs and protein, increase on a relative basis.

As for yogurt, it's almost impossible to find flavored yogurt in "full fat"; plain yogurt is still readily available. Funny how they remove the fat, drastically raise the sugar levels, and add some mystery chemicals to give it mouth feel, then promote is as "healthier"...
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:47 PM   #109
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Obviously, when you lower the fat content of milk, the other macros, carbs and protein, increase on a relative basis.

As for yogurt, it's almost impossible to find flavored yogurt in "full fat"; plain yogurt is still readily available. Funny how they remove the fat, drastically raise the sugar levels, and add some mystery chemicals to give it mouth feel, then promote is as "healthier"...
Whole milk yogurt is available from places like Trader Joe's. Our local supermarket has some (but not a lot) in its 'health' food section right next to the free range eggs laid by vegetarian chickens who apparently don't eat any bugs while wandering the free range, and an organic, non GMO liquid made from milking soy beans.

It is a shame. I have eaten good whole milk plain yogurt (not the bitter nasty stuff sold in most supermarkets), and it has a delicious dairy flavor and wonderful mouth feel. Very yummy.
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Old 05-22-2014, 05:30 PM   #110
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FWIW, it's very easy and economical to make your own whole milk yogurt at home. Yogurt cheese, too. Very good stuff and you know exactly what goes into it.
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Old 05-22-2014, 05:39 PM   #111
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FWIW, it's very easy and economical to make your own whole milk yogurt at home. Yogurt cheese, too. Very good stuff and you know exactly what goes into it.
+1 and creme fraiche. Couldn't be easier. I have a little styrofoam cooler that I pre-heat with water which does a completely adequate job of yogurt making.

(I make my own red wine vinegar, too).
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:43 PM   #112
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? A looooooot? How do you figure that? There's no sugar added to skim milk. Though, eliminating the ~ 3.5% fat means everything else is 3.5% more (percentage multiple, not percentage points_ - so x1.035) to make up that volume.

According to this source for one:

Calories in Milk: A Nutritional Comparison of Milks With Different Percentages of Fat

About 11 gm sugar versus 12 gm. Not a looooooot, is it?
You'll note that I cited "fat-free DAIRY," not fat-free milk.

I do not drink dairy milk, period, as I mentioned in another post. Why? You said it: 11g of sugar per serving. 11g or 12g of sugar is "a looooooooot" of lactose sugar to take in in one small serving. It's why people who aren't 100% lactose intolerant, but are looking to reduce lactose intake to ease IBS or similar issues just don't drink milk! (This is me: I tolerate cottage cheese, aged cheeses, heavy cream... low lactose stuff... just fine).

Let's look at something I do eat:

4% (full fat) cottage cheese: 3g sugar
Fat-free cottage cheese: 7g sugar

That's 133% more sugar in the fat-free DAIRY product, and that 100g (roughly half-cup) serving makes up about 1/5th of your RDA of sugar (vs. less than 1/10th in the full fat).

And in my coffee - Heavy Whipping Cream: 0g carbs per tbsp

That accounts for all of my regular dairy intake!

Milk?

Skim: 12g per serving
Whole: 11g per serving
Unsweetened Almond Milk: 0g per serving (1g carb total)

I rest my case!
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:55 PM   #113
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And here's a random one I pulled up:

Shredded cheddar cheese (1 oz serving):

Fat free: 4g carb, 3g sugar
Full fat: 1g carb, 0g sugar

So it's not just ice cream and chocolate milk...
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Old 05-23-2014, 07:54 AM   #114
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Salt, fat, sugar are what tend to make something taste good. If you remove all fat, you need to watch out for salt and sugar increases.
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Old 05-23-2014, 08:57 AM   #115
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You'll note that I cited "fat-free DAIRY," not fat-free milk.

I do not drink dairy milk, period, ...
Well, milk is the first 'dairy product' that came to my mind, I do drink it (in small amounts), so that's why I listed it.

I agree somewhat though - often times, sugar and/or thickeners are added to 'low fat' products (of all types, not just dairy) to make them more palatable to some consumers. I just don't think it is as universal as you indicate ...


Quote:
Let's look at something I do eat:

4% (full fat) cottage cheese: 3g sugar
Fat-free cottage cheese: 7g sugar

....
OK, but then there is this:

Quote:
According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, an 8-ounce serving of plain full-fat yogurt provides about 140 calories, 8 grams of protein, 7.4 grams of fat, 11 grams of carbohydrates and sugar, and 275 milligrams of calcium. ...

Eight ounces of nonfat, plain Greek yogurt has 130 calories, 23 grams of protein, no fat, 9 grams of carbohydrates and sugar, and 250 milligrams of calcium.
So there we have an example of a non-fat dairy product with fewer sugar/carbs gms than the full-fat version.

Quote:
Milk?

Skim: 12g per serving
Whole: 11g per serving
Unsweetened Almond Milk: 0g per serving (1g carb total)

I rest my case!
There is no 'case' to be 'rested'. I think the point is one needs to read the labels, generalities won't always cut it.

And Almond Milk isn't a dairy product - it's not really relevant to your statement about "Dairy Products'. But it's still a good point separate from that, and I'm going to look into replacing the milk I do use (not a lot really, a quart is rarely finished around here before it goes bad) with unsweetened Almond Milk - so thanks for pointing that out!


Quote:
milkfat, which is naturally sweet.
I guess I've never heard of milkfat described as 'sweet'? I find the difference between whole milk and skim milk to be about 'richness' and 'mouthfeel' and a 'fuller' flavor. But as has been pointed out, skim milk is only marginally higher in lactose (and everything else), not because any sugar was added, but because with ~ 3.5% less fat, everything else has to increase by 1.035x to make up the lost volume.

The 'sweet' descriptor in butter is only to differentiate the 'sweet cream' that is used, from 'sour cream'. Though I never heard of butter made from sour cream, I guess it's just tradition?

No real 'argument' from me, I just like accuracy, especially with all the unknowns in food/health.

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Old 05-23-2014, 09:44 AM   #116
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Salt, fat, sugar are what tend to make something taste good. If you remove all fat, you need to watch out for salt and sugar increases.

I watched an interesting documentary not too long ago and one of the things they demonstrated was adding snacks to a cage with a mouse. With an all sugar or all fat snack the mice would eat a little but mostly eat their regular food. However when they added a snack such as cheesecake into the cages the mice couldn't resist and kept snacking on it regularly and soon became obese. They did a brief test on the streets of NYC and London handing out free donuts from a tray that held plain glazed donuts, and a selection of fancy donuts (e.g. cream filled, iced on top). Overwhelmingly the plain glazed were the most popular.

Just like the cheesecake in the mouse cages, plained glazed donuts have a 50/50 ratio of fat to sugar and manufacturers know that this combination in foods is the most popular mix.
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:49 AM   #117
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The elephant in the room in the full-fat versus low-fat issue is that we were told, or given the impression, that the low-fat product was 'better' for us regardless of the sugar content. Here's an example"
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Until recently, Cocoa Puffs enjoyed the endorsement of the American Heart Association (AHA) as a heart-healthy food.
Is Cocoa Puffs no longer heart healthy? - Wellsphere

Ok, it's not yogurt or soft drinks, but is is an example of how not having fat was misrepresented, in my opinion.
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:53 AM   #118
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Salt, fat, sugar are what tend to make something taste good. If you remove all fat, you need to watch out for salt and sugar increases.
A very popular flavor today for those of us who enjoy an infrequent sweet treat is salted caramel. Now we know why it is so popular!
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:37 AM   #119
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I watched an interesting documentary not too long ago and one of the things they demonstrated was adding snacks to a cage with a mouse. With an all sugar or all fat snack the mice would eat a little but mostly eat their regular food. However when they added a snack such as cheesecake into the cages the mice couldn't resist and kept snacking on it regularly and soon became obese. They did a brief test on the streets of NYC and London handing out free donuts from a tray that held plain glazed donuts, and a selection of fancy donuts (e.g. cream filled, iced on top). Overwhelmingly the plain glazed were the most popular.

Just like the cheesecake in the mouse cages, plained glazed donuts have a 50/50 ratio of fat to sugar and manufacturers know that this combination in foods is the most popular mix.

That's me. I'm the mouse and the house is the cage... When those things are brought into my cage I snack on it until it's gone. If I could buy it and spread out the period over a length of time that would be fine, but it doesn't happen. So I don't buy it, well most of the time.....


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Old 05-23-2014, 11:45 AM   #120
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The elephant in the room in the full-fat versus low-fat issue is that we were told, or given the impression, that the low-fat product was 'better' for us regardless of the sugar content. ...

Ok, it's not yogurt or soft drinks, but is is an example of how not having fat was misrepresented, in my opinion.
Agreed. It frustrates me & DW - she works at a school, and they were trying to mandate that any snacks brought in for birthdays, etc, had to be 'healthy'. DW said people bring in super-processed stuff labeled 'no/low fat' and 'no/low sugar'. Now, who's to say the other stuff they put in is better/worse for us than whatever sugar/fat they are replacing?

And get a grip - it's a snack, not an everyday thing. Far more important what is eaten everyday - focus on that. And physical activity.

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