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Old 04-03-2012, 09:56 AM   #101
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Should fats, eaten for millions of years, be innocent until proven guilty?
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:02 AM   #102
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Should fats, eaten for millions of years, be innocent until proven guilty?
I don't think so, I think healthy skepticism of all food we eat is reasonable.

Many things were believed to be true for millions of years. It is only through questioning them that we learn.

"That's the way we've always done it."


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Old 04-03-2012, 10:32 AM   #103
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Should fats, eaten for millions of years, be innocent until proven guilty?
This sort of dangerous thinking could severely cripple discussion boards.

Ha
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:47 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by ERD50

I don't think so, I think healthy skepticism of all food we eat is reasonable.

Many things were believed to be true for millions of years. It is only through questioning them that we learn.

"That's the way we've always done it."

-ERD50
Then I need some randomized, controlled studies on the safety of water.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:03 AM   #105
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Should fats, eaten for millions of years, be innocent until proven guilty?
Here's my point, which I was trying to make in a concise way, since I was posting on my iPod touch.

Remember that I was a low-fat whole grains guy for many years. Then I was convinced that carbs were a problem, but still wary of fat. I felt that fat was OK only in that it let you eat less carbs.

Then, I had a revelation. What if there really is no good evidence that fat is bad for you? Just consider that for a moment. Imagine that Ancel Keys had never misinterpreted the WWII rationing study or the 7 countries study, and we had never gotten on this anti-fat bandwagon.

In that world, no one would think twice about eating fat.

Yes, healthy skepticism is good, but remember, you have to eat something. So until fat is proven to be bad, you shouldn't avoid it. To continue the legal theme, you have to go with the preponderance of the evidence.

My take is that the evidence against sugars and whole grains is stronger than the evidence against fat.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:06 AM   #106
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Should fats, eaten for millions of years, be innocent until proven guilty?
Obviously a bogus argument. The earth is only six thousand years old.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:30 AM   #107
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Should fats, eaten for millions of years, be innocent until proven guilty?
Humans have canine teeth. Unless you want to argue that they evolved to break up and tear extremely tough vegetables, meat seems to be the next logical fodder. Fat is usu. attached. That does not prove anything about whether fat is good or bad, but fat has lots of useful energy.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:40 AM   #108
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Humans have canine teeth. Unless you want to argue that they evolved to break up and tear extremely tough vegetables, meat seems to be the next logical fodder. Fat is usu. attached. That does not prove anything about whether fat is good or bad, but fat has lots of useful energy.
I have my doubt that any non-meat beyond leaves and the above ground parts of plants were eaten in the cold climates before the discovery of fire. Ever dug up a Camas root? Eating these things raw would soon wear out your teeth, if it didn't poison you.

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Old 04-03-2012, 11:47 AM   #109
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I have my doubt that any non-meat beyond leaves and the above ground parts of plants were eaten in the cold climates before the discovery of fire. Ever dug up a Camas root? Eating these things raw would soon wear out your teeth, if it didn't poison you.

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Once I heard the term "Death Camas" I dropped any inclination to try it...cooked or otherwise. Huckleberries are close enough to "reenactment" for me, plus they taste good.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:06 PM   #110
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Here's my point, which I was trying to make in a concise way, since I was posting on my iPod touch.

Remember that I was a low-fat whole grains guy for many years. Then I was convinced that carbs were a problem, but still wary of fat. I felt that fat was OK only in that it let you eat less carbs.

Then, I had a revelation. What if there really is no good evidence that fat is bad for you? Just consider that for a moment. Imagine that Ancel Keys had never misinterpreted the WWII rationing study or the 7 countries study, and we had never gotten on this anti-fat bandwagon.

In that world, no one would think twice about eating fat.

Yes, healthy skepticism is good, but remember, you have to eat something. So until fat is proven to be bad, you shouldn't avoid it. To continue the legal theme, you have to go with the preponderance of the evidence.

My take is that the evidence against sugars and whole grains is stronger than the evidence against fat.

I think the problem with this is that man was not really have a concern for healthy eating until recently... the average age of man even 1,000 years ago was not that old... heck, almost everybody posting on this board would have been dead... was it because of fat or something else.... who knows for sure...

I think fat, and I am going to say meat for this, was eaten by early man is it has a lot of calories by weight and you can hunt for it easily...


On a side note, I just watched the report on 60 minutes about sugar.... it was interesting... one thing that I learned is that there is nothing on earth that has fructose in it is poisonous to us.... which is why we crave sugar...
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:21 PM   #111
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On a side note, I just watched the report on 60 minutes about sugar.... it was interesting... one thing that I learned is that there is nothing on earth that has fructose in it is poisonous to us.... which is why we crave sugar...
This is an interesting idea, but I have doubts. Some wild poisonous berries at least smell sweet, and that may inciate the presence of fructose. Anyway, did primitive man carry around a chem lab?

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Old 04-03-2012, 12:30 PM   #112
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This is an interesting idea, but I have doubts. Some wild poisonous berries at least smell sweet, and that may inciate the presence of fructose. Anyway, did primitive man carry around a chem lab?

Ha
Just passing on what I heard... but I would say that smelling sweet and tasting sweet are two different things... and even tasting sweet and having fructose in it might be something different... but you still did not disprove the statement...

Plus, when you see the guy who ate that berry first keel over dead, you will probably leave it alone.... I guess that was their chem lab....
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:31 PM   #113
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Then I need some randomized, controlled studies on the safety of water.
Water is a good example of something that science has been skeptical of. A few hundred years ago, sanitation issues with water were identified as a cause of disease.

And before science, people learned that they were better off drinking beer or rum than bad water.

Steps were taken to assure our water was clean, and that included mechanical, chemical, heat and UV treatment. Along the way, each was tested for safety.

I've never suggested anyone eliminate things from their diet that we've eaten for a million years, unless we have clear evidence of harm. So I don't even know why you would present that non sequitur?

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Old 04-03-2012, 12:45 PM   #114
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Then I need some randomized, controlled studies on the safety of water.
I quit drinking water when I realized that it is the only place that fish have to fornicate.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:18 PM   #115
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Just passing on what I heard... but I would say that smelling sweet and tasting sweet are two different things... and even tasting sweet and having fructose in it might be something different... but you still did not disprove the statement...

....
Oh, I realize that. I have no chem lab, no do I want to test the claim by tasting.

Ha
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:35 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Texas Proud

I think the problem with this is that man was not really have a concern for healthy eating until recently... the average age of man even 1,000 years ago was not that old... heck, almost everybody posting on this board would have been dead... was it because of fat or something else.... who knows for sure...

I think fat, and I am going to say meat for this, was eaten by early man is it has a lot of calories by weight and you can hunt for it easily...
I used to argue that early man only lived to be 30 or so, so things that would cause him CVDor other problems when he was 60 were irrelevant. I've changed my thinking a bit, having read that although the average lifespan of man then was short, a significant number of prehistoric men did indeed live to 60 or more years of age, and they had value to the society (and to man's survival).
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:34 PM   #117
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I used to argue that early man only lived to be 30 or so, so things that would cause him CVDor other problems when he was 60 were irrelevant. I've changed my thinking a bit, having read that although the average lifespan of man then was short, a significant number of prehistoric men did indeed live to 60 or more years of age, and they had value to the society (and to man's survival).
Based on what I understand about advances in medicine during the early 20th century is that the rise of sanitation, medicines (particularly anti-biotics), safety awareness, rise of communication and education had a big impact on causes of death. In 1900, the biggest causes of death were:

Pneumonia (all forms) and influenza----40,362
Tuberculosis (all forms) ---------------38,820
Diarrhea, enteritis, and ulceration of the intestines------ 28,491
Diseases of the heart ----------------- 27,427
Intracranial lesions of vascular origin ---21,353
Nephritis (all forms) -------------------17,699
All accidents --------------------------14,429
Cancer and other malignant tumors ----12,769
Senility-------------------------------10,015
Diphtheria-----------------------------8,056

Reference here from CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf

BTW, be careful with the most recent list. My understanding is that things like Pneumonia and influenza that are still on the list, are no longer due to not being able to address it early in life, but that many people who die older in age actually are classified as Pneu & Influenze because they are bed ridden and have fluid build-up in the lung and/or are older with a decreased ability to fight influenza.

Obviously our understanding and classification changed over time, so there may be some things that actually are "cancers"...however, it is obvious to me that the issues of CHD and Cancers becoming center stage and our longevity increasing is that we vastly reduced the major INFECTIOUS diseases that killed people early, allowing people to live longer and exposing or elevating those things that kill us later in life...CHRONIC disease.

I'm interested what happens when if/when we solve major chronic disease [with LCHF diets ]...

Oh, BTW...BACON!
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Old 04-04-2012, 07:17 AM   #118
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I am not sure what the value is in comparing caveman diets to what we eat today. Heck, meats are now ladden with hormones and who knows what and fruits and veggies have been treated with pesticides/fertilizers/etc and then you have all the highly processed foods.

I still believe that some diets may be better suited for particular individuals based on their body composition, metabolism and underlying medical conditions vs one diet is best for everyone. Actually, diet is probably the wrong term to use, nutrition plan seems better.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:17 PM   #119
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I quit drinking water when I realized that it is the only place that fish have to fornicate.
... and defecate...
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:58 PM   #120
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And here's another article debunking the China Study from an independent source. It is from a non-profit foundation "dedicated to restoring nutrient-dense foods to the human diet through education, research and activism." Translation, not in bed with any industries.
http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/the-china-study-myth
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