Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-09-2015, 11:09 AM   #21
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,997
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017ish View Post
Just note that there is a big difference between "needing some type of long-term care services and supports" and entering care facility within scope of LTCI coverage....
This is huge. I've mentioned this in another discussion but after Jim Cramer's father died he went on a rant about how the LTC insurer refused to pay when his father entered a nursing home after a stroke because the insurer didn't think he was sufficiently debilitated. Cramer took them to court and won, but didn't end up with much after the lawyers were paid. Too bad he didn't name the company.
__________________

__________________
athena53 is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 04-09-2015, 11:36 AM   #22
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
braumeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 8,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
Now where the govt. got it I haven't drilled down to see.
That's what I was talking about.
As far as I can tell, the statistic isn't supported by any of the references cited.

I may be missing something, but this (frequently repeated because it's on a government website) statistic appears dubious to me.
__________________

__________________
braumeister is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 12:55 PM   #23
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by braumeister View Post
That's what I was talking about.
As far as I can tell, the statistic isn't supported by any of the references cited.

I may be missing something, but this (frequently repeated because it's on a government website) statistic appears dubious to me.
It does include home care, and part of that is unpaid home care by a family member. That's a pretty broad definition.
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 01:55 PM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Katsmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,399
Part of the problem with Long-Term Care policies is that nowadays they typically provide benefits sufficient to cover only a few years.

Look at what nunthewiser posted:

Quote:
My mom has been paying into a Genworth LT policy for about 20 years. She is 95 now and needs to collect (finally). She has perhaps paid about $100K over those years. Her benefits are $158/day for nursing home cover (real cost is now about $230-260 day) or $78/day for Assisted Living (real cost is $70-$100/day) after 30/60 day exclusion, Her max payout is $314K.
So she spent $100k (at least) to get at most $314k cover. So, if the cost was $100k then the net potential benefit if $214k. Is it worth getting LTC insurance to potentially get a benefit of that amount?

I was very interested in LTC insurance but I just can't feel it is worth the huge cost for something that you may never need, may need for only a limited amount of time, and provides so little benefit.

I would love to see a LTC policy that had a huge deductible (a year or two of care) and then paid everything above that amount for the rest of life. But, that isn't what I've seen (if that exists, in other words, I haven't seen it).
__________________
Katsmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 02:06 PM   #25
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,104
We are pretty much self insured, and what I cannot fathom is buying LTC insurance "when you're younger and get a better deal" and yet I repeatedly see where they can increase your premiums at will. How on earth can you assess the value of a policy when they can ratchet it up to the point you drop it, perhaps a year or two when you could collect? Seems like a great business model for them but for you "buying a pig in a poke." Whatever that means.
__________________
H2ODude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 02:19 PM   #26
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,997
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2ODude View Post
We are pretty much self insured, and what I cannot fathom is buying LTC insurance "when you're younger and get a better deal" and yet I repeatedly see where they can increase your premiums at will. How on earth can you assess the value of a policy when they can ratchet it up to the point you drop it, perhaps a year or two when you could collect? Seems like a great business model for them but for you "buying a pig in a poke." Whatever that means.
It's not a great business model for the insurers, either. That's why they keep increasing rates and why so many no longer provide it. There's a lot of adverse selection involved; people who come from families where everyone dies of a heart attack before age 60 are unlikely to buy it. When rates get increased, the ones who keep paying are the ones showing early signs of dementia. OK, that's an exaggeration, but people who buy and keep this coverage are the ones most likely to need it. I'd also guess that if you do get into a nursing home and have adequate coverage, you'll live longer than someone who tries to age at home because they don't have the money for LTC.

I've come to the same conclusion as you, though- we're self-insuring.
__________________
athena53 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 02:29 PM   #27
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
JoeWras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2ODude View Post
We are pretty much self insured, and what I cannot fathom is buying LTC insurance "when you're younger and get a better deal" and yet I repeatedly see where they can increase your premiums at will. How on earth can you assess the value of a policy when they can ratchet it up to the point you drop it, perhaps a year or two when you could collect? Seems like a great business model for them but for you "buying a pig in a poke." Whatever that means.
If you are referring to my comment... Well, we didn't buy it because we "get a better deal". Heck no.

Bought it after seeing friends in their 50s suffer big time when spouses had early dementias. Both needed care for about 3 years before passing. LTCI would have been huge for the surviving spouse, to help their future be more secure.

I'm not saying this is correct. Just saying why we did it for a relatively short term plan (15 years or so). It was admittedly a bit of an emotional knee-jerk.
__________________
JoeWras is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 04:57 PM   #28
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 204
Quote:
yet I repeatedly see where they can increase your premiums at will.

IIRC, looking at the file my Mom's premiums were about $4K/yr when she initiated coverage when she was in her late 70s. They are about $6K/yr now. When they increased the premiums about 2 years ago they offered to cut the benefit rates in lieu of some of the increase. Hobson's choice.
__________________
.................................
A life without beer is not worth living
Nunthewiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 06:45 PM   #29
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: philly
Posts: 876
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
The case for buying long-term care insurance - CBS News

Saw this article on LTC insurance and thought of this thread. The author is obviously pro-LTCI and cites some concerning statistics about the odds of needing LTC:




The above information is reflected in this chart:
I saw this but I think it's just too vague. for example 70% of people at 65 need some type of ltc. what does that mean? my dad needed assistance with simple things in his home which was taken care by having a helper come in 3X's a week. very affordable.

I'm only 55 so I've elected for right now to decline. I did get a rider on my life insurance policy that allows me to use it to pay for LTC if needed
__________________
bclover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2015, 07:19 PM   #30
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newventurer View Post
We bought a Genworth plan a few years ago for my DW who is in good health and it is $57 a month, lots of restrictions as mentioned by others. Our thought was we would buy it for one of us with her having the likely longer life, thus more likely to need it. We have reduced our risk by 50% the way we look at it.
we had a proposal for 2k/each a year and thought it was not worth it for us... but all these plans need evaluate for our individual situations. If the situation was proportionate... I would not do it. in that case they would not pay enough for the premium. However, maybe your cost was lower than our estimate
__________________
bingybear is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 04:16 AM   #31
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeWras View Post
We started paying on a policy a few years ago. We're using it for early onset issues. We'll drop later and self insure assuming we don't need it.

Seems backwards? Maybe. I guess you could say we're treating it a bit like term life. We won't end up paying $100k into it.

Nords has had many stories on this and it is very enlightening. I've cooled off quite a bit on LTCI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
I think they got it from this govt. website: How Much Care Will You Need? - Long-Term Care Information
Now where the govt. got it I haven't drilled down to see.
And then there's recent data from a research group at Boston College. It's possible that they're objective, because I doubt that the long-term care insurance industry would have published these conclusions:
http://crr.bc.edu/wp-content/uploads...wp_2014-12.pdf

That's the inspiration for this post:
Why I Won't Buy Long-Term Care Insurance - Military Guide
Frankly, I don't want to burden my spouse with the hassle of dealing with LTC insurers. Heck, I wouldn't even want Jim Cramer to suffer that fate.

As for insurability, I've learned that the Federal Long-Term Care Insurance Program will turn down an applicant if there are existing veteran's disability concerns.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 07:24 AM   #32
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
As for insurability, I've learned that the Federal Long-Term Care Insurance Program will turn down an applicant if there are existing veteran's disability concerns.
Aren't disabled veterans covered for LTC through the military?
__________________
someguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 01:46 PM   #33
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,929
Quote:
Originally Posted by someguy View Post
Aren't disabled veterans covered for LTC through the military?
For varying definitions of "care", yes.

Paying for Long Term Care - Geriatrics and Extended Care
__________________
M Paquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 02:10 PM   #34
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
It does include home care, and part of that is unpaid home care by a family member. That's a pretty broad definition.
That's an interesting tidbit MichaelB. Thanks.

I believe the LTC usage stats also include relatively short (up to 100 days) stays for rehab due to surgery, recovery from an debilitating injury, etc. that are covered by Medicare.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2015, 06:06 PM   #35
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 202
Thanks everyone, for your insights. Well, at this point I think that I will get some general information and pricing and decide from there. I can see the pros and the cons of both. You're taking a chance that the insurance company will still be in existence 20 or 30 years from now and also regular price increases on an already expensive premium are a concern. Self insuring for a couple hundred thousand is one thing - but paying for long term stays for two adults is another matter.

Sent from my KFTHWA using Tapatalk HD
__________________
Debinnov a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 05:08 PM   #36
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by someguy View Post
Aren't disabled veterans covered for LTC through the military?
I'm not sure, but I believe that the care would be priced according to financial need.

That's a heck of a question for my next eBook, though-- thanks for asking it. I'm going to have to research what the VA would do, and for which veterans, and from what care contractors, and how much it'd cost.

At this point even the VA is preferable to John Hancock.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 05:15 PM   #37
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kerrville,Tx
Posts: 2,721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
I'm not sure, but I believe that the care would be priced according to financial need.

That's a heck of a question for my next eBook, though-- thanks for asking it. I'm going to have to research what the VA would do, and for which veterans, and from what care contractors, and how much it'd cost.

At this point even the VA is preferable to John Hancock.
Recall when my late aunt was on medicaid for nursing homes the program for veterans was involved (she served as a nurse in WWII). I don't know if it ever got done but such a program does exist.
__________________
meierlde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 06:14 PM   #38
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
I'm not sure, but I believe that the care would be priced according to financial need.

That's a heck of a question for my next eBook, though-- thanks for asking it. I'm going to have to research what the VA would do, and for which veterans, and from what care contractors, and how much it'd cost.

At this point even the VA is preferable to John Hancock.
Another weird confluence. This past week I have been researching this exact thing. LTC (nursing home and in some cases Assisted living arrangements) are available via the state run Veteran's Homes formerly known as "The Old Soldier's Home".

Yes, cost is based on ability to pay. You cannot be turned away except for not meeting state residency or medical requirements. They are not The "VA" they are State run entities and different rules apply in each state.

I found out I am eligible for a slot in one of Nebraska's four Veteran's Homes and also in the one big centralized one in the State of Iowa.

My hang up with this is if I ever end up in a group living arrangement
for veterans in my old age they will be the same azzholes I had to live in the barracks with in my young age!
__________________
razztazz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2015, 06:26 PM   #39
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Katsmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Debinnov a View Post
Self insuring for a couple hundred thousand is one thing - but paying for long term stays for two adults is another matter.
But -- that's the problem with most long-term care insurance. That is, most of the currently available policies don't give lifetime coverage. Typically they cover 5 years or less of coverage (and 5 years costs a lot more than the 3 years that I've seen that seems to be typical of a lot of policies). They cover and pay for a set amount which is may well be the amount you could self-insure for. Once we figure in the cost of the premiums over an extended period of time, I'm not sure we would get all that much benefit.
__________________
Katsmeow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2015, 01:48 PM   #40
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Marita40's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: St. Paul
Posts: 1,120
I remain conflicted about LTC. Just got notice of an increase on my Genworth policy, the first increase since I bought it 4 years ago. So my conflict has escalated.
__________________

__________________
Marita40 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

« Orthotics | 5-HTP »

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Long term loss combined with long term gain dmpi FIRE and Money 9 12-21-2012 04:27 PM
Long-term Care Insurance and Life Insurance thatgirlmjl Young Dreamers 15 01-20-2012 12:24 PM
US Pulls plug on Long Term Care portion of health care reformct ("CLASS Act") samclem Other topics 14 10-15-2011 11:27 AM
Long-Term Care - Part of Health Care Reform Bill chinaco Health and Early Retirement 3 07-19-2009 03:53 PM
Long Term Care Insurance - CR investigates Telly FIRE and Money 5 02-02-2004 08:32 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:51 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.