Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 09:20 PM   #61
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 718
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Edit

My mistake having this discussion. Carry on!
__________________

__________________
Mwsinron is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 09:32 PM   #62
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwsinron
"Everyone pays to fund it"

That is called socialism.
Do you have strong feelings about roads? Cops? Mail carriers?
__________________

__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 09:53 PM   #63
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,382
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Do you have strong feelings about roads? Cops? Mail carriers?
Of course he does! We should fund police the way they do in Colombia. You have some money? Then create a police force to do things your way. You don't have money? Then you either sleep with or join one or another of the private forces who control everything.

You aren’t young enough for these “options”. OK , in that case just die and get the hell out of the way! :P

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is online now   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 10:19 PM   #64
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 21
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

I thought a large part of the extra cost of medical care in the US was what we spend on the last 2 weeks of life, with all sort of ultra-expensive invasive hospital emergency procedures that do not prolong quality of life, but its mere duration, by a few weeks.

Hospitals love it, families now think they did "everything they could", and this cultural attitude costs a lot and gets us very little.
__________________
Jeffrey is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 10:20 PM   #65
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 718
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

My apologies. I edited my response and someone felt the need to quote it. Ill excuse myself from such a passionate discussion.

Thanks
__________________
Mwsinron is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 10:50 PM   #66
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

I admire all the people on this board who feel sorry for the poor people and hate seeing people suffer. Believe it or not, I feel the same way. I once bought a very poor friend of mine a car (actually, I bought her cars on two separate occassions - the second one after she totalled the first one I bought her) so she could truck her four kids back and forth to daycare and get to work, etc.. I gave her my cellphone so she could have access to 911 in case her diabetic child needed care. I spent hours trying to help her find public housing. I even encouraged her get signed up for Medicaid. Amazing! She qualified!

Unfortunately, the reality is that, even if you nationalize care, the poor people in this country will still have trouble accesssing care because they won't necessarily have transportation to and from facilities. The good facilities may not be located in their neighborhoods. They'll still have trouble paying copays, co-insurance and out of pocket costs. It's idealistic to think that we can solve the problem by providing healthcare for (Medicare) for all with minimal out of pocket costs to everyone so that absolutely no-one will ever suffer. In a system like that, demand will overrun supply to a point where everyone will end up suffering in the longrun. What will we say then to the thousands of women (maybe even rich women) who might die of breast cancer because there aren't enough practioners to service all the women who need mammograms or surgeons available to perform the mastectomy? Or what about the people who might die of cardiac arrest because they are waiting in line for heart surgery (after all, they might not have been in an emergency situation when they signed up on the waiting list). What will we say to the people who can't get their meds in a timely manner because supply has run out or there aren't enough doctors available right away to schedule an appt for a prescription refill?

There may be a compromise somewhere in the middle, but that will mean that there will still need to be some inequality, and some poor people still might not be able to easily afford their deductibles or out of pocket costs, but maybe, maybe, we can make preventive and catastrophic care accessible to all with a little bit of sacrifice from everyone.

The object of the game is to get the largest possible number of people covered with the least possible sacrifice to quality, innovation and choice. That is a monumental task! You have to be careful about taking too much money from the rich to take care of the poor, because eventually, that kind of system will lead to complacency. Who is going to want to work real hard to have half their income taken away for somebody else that isn't contributing to the system at all? You can only tax the wealthy so much, and soon, they will stop working so hard. You can only cap doctor's income so much, and soon, they'll be placing limits on their services.
__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 11:21 PM   #67
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 137
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

I don't think working people who are insured by their employer realize how much their health insurance costs. When we were working we paid $128 dollars a month in premiums when we left the work force and used COBRA and had to pay the full cost our monthly premium went to almost $900 per month. That is $10,800 per year. This year the cost will be $12,000. Our premiums are increasing 8% to 10% per year.

So those of you who are working that don't have a large part of your retirement money set aside for health insurance don't plan on retiring before age 65.
__________________
Freein05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 11:29 PM   #68
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freein05
I don't think working people who are insured by their employer realize how much their health insurance costs. When we were working we paid $128 dollars a month in premiums when we left the work force and used COBRA and had to pay the full cost our monthly premium went to almost $900 per month. That is $10,800 per year. This year the cost will be $12,000. Our premiums are increasing 8% to 10% per year.

So those of you who are working that don't have a large part of your retirement money set aside for health insurance don't plan on retiring before age 65.
Either that, or forego your company policy to purchase an inexpensive, catastrophic, individual policy before you get sick so you can enjoy the lower premiums in the longrun and not be tied to employment because of health insurance needs.
__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-15-2007, 11:45 PM   #69
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 137
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Either that, or forego your company policy to purchase an inexpensive, catastrophic, individual policy before you get sick so you can enjoy the lower premiums in the longrun and not be tied to employment because of health insurance needs.
That has got to be the dumbest advise I have ever heard. A catastrophic policy is a sure way to financial disaster. Give up a good insurance policy for a crappy insurance policy. Plus if you do get sick there is no limit on how much a catastrophic policy will cost. The insurance company will use the trick of price them out the door. Many people have been forced into bankruptcy because of health care cost and they had catastrophic insurance.
__________________
Freein05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 12:06 AM   #70
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freein05
That has got to be the dumbest advise I have ever heard. A catastrophic policy is a sure way to financial disaster. Give up a good insurance policy for a crappy insurance policy. Plus if you do get sick there is no limit on how much a catastrophic policy will cost. The insurance company will use the trick of price them out the door. Many people have been forced into bankruptcy because of health care cost and they had catastrophic insurance.
Let's see...in Colorado, a healthy person (even a 50+ year old person) can purchase a 5000 deductible individual policy with 100% coverage after deductible, including preventive care NOT subject to the deductible, for less than $200/mo. A younger person might even be able to get that for less than $80/mo. A really young person (in their 20's) could get it for about $50/mo. With premiums that low, it wouldn't take long to save $5000 over a couple of years to pay for that deductible. Now, you have 100% coverage at a fraction of the cost of a traditional plan. Maintain a healthy lifestyle, and you might even be able to save for your deductible several times over within a 10 year timeframe, and then use that money for healthcare costs as you age. Hmmmm....

The biggest mistake that many people make, IMO, is to think that it's necessary to have 100% coverage even for the most, minimal, affordable, deductible expenses such as routine office visits, lab work, and generic prescription drug coverage. They overutilize, because they feel like they need to get every penny out that they have put in. The vast majority of people will never get to $5000 in a calendar year, but it's nice to know that your expenses are capped should you be hospitalized. Even a middle to lower class family could work out a financing arrangement to pay $5000 over time if they had to. Why throw all that money away on premiums? Pay low, low premiums and save for your own deductible expenses. It can be done. Forget the company policy. Make it your own choice to be able to retire early, instead of being tied to your employment for insurance until age 65. Negotiate a raise from your employer to pay for some of your premiums and even for some of your deductible expenses in return for waiving coverage under the group plan. Employers would probably much rather pay for a cheap individual policy than an expensive group policy.

Another mistake people make is to assume that an insurance company is going to price them out of the door if they get sick. It simply doesn't happen like that on an individual basis. I've worked individual renewals over and over again, and the vast majority of them, even ones that have had claims filed against them, are within 10% of the new business rates available for the same plan. You don't get rated because of personal claims. Rating is all based on age band, claims experience of large groups of members, and trends in the industry.

Sure, the insurance carrier can go out of business, but those situations are few and far between. Buyer beware. Stick with a carrier that has been in the individual health insurance market for many, many years.

If you choose to stay with group coverage, the risk you take is to become uninsurable later on or to be tied to employment until age 65. If you want to retire early, think about getting your own policy before you become "uninsurable".
__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 12:50 AM   #71
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 137
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Myk - Some of what you say does make sense. The big risk is having a preexisting condition that would prevent you from getting coverage or affordable coverage. This can happen even when the condition is under control. Insurance companies do not want to take the risk of the condition reoccurring and becoming costly to them. I don't know the numbers but many people 50 plus have had some type of medical condition that would prevent them from getting an individual policy and a group policy through an employer is their only choice.
__________________
Freein05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 01:36 AM   #72
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 718
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

You know what. Im tired of the working class being asked to foot the bill for the lazy pieces of **** who cant get a job and afford health care. Or who wont even bother to better themselves. Save your bleeding heart stories Martha. For everyone of your ohnoes stories there is someone who made better of themselves. Dont worry there will be alot of assholes like me voting anything like universal health care down as long as we can.
__________________
Mwsinron is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 06:13 AM   #73
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
teejayevans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,220
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
I think for a healthcare system to be the "best", it has to serve the largest number of people, with the best possible quality of service, readily available, at the fairest possible price. IMO, capitalistic solutions are the better way to get there. That's just my opinion.
Capitalistic solutions don't apply, because for capitalism to work, the
consumer has to have a choice, given a choice, then competition drives
down the price. The consumer doesn't have a choice: you must have
insurance on your house if you have a mortgage, you must have car
insurance, if you get injured/sick you must see a doctor and since prices
are so high you can't self insure, you must have health insurance.

Sure there are different companies, but in the end, I must buy from one
of them. There are different hospitals, but you can't check the prices
until after you get the bill. I'll bet the doc has no idea what the tests that
he orders cost.

Lack of choice and knowledge on the consumer;
means high prices, unnecessary tests,
add some lawsuits into the mix, and you have the horrendous health care
system of the US.
TJ


__________________
teejayevans is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 06:19 AM   #74
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
teejayevans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,220
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE'd@51
This is why nothing gets done. What Wyden is proposing is not Socialism. He is not advocating a government takeover of the healthcare delivery system?
So all the healthy/younger people will stay with private insurance, the rest will have
some form of insurance, I'm ok with that if that's how it will work.
TJ
__________________
teejayevans is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 06:23 AM   #75
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
teejayevans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,220
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
I thought a large part of the extra cost of medical care in the US was what we spend on the last 2 weeks of life, with all sort of ultra-expensive invasive hospital emergency procedures that do not prolong quality of life, but its mere duration, by a few weeks.

Hospitals love it, families now think they did "everything they could", and this cultural attitude costs a lot and gets us very little.
Hence the need for couples to have a living will.
The exact quote is: 50% of our medical costs occur in the last 6 months of our
life.
TJ
__________________
teejayevans is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 06:31 AM   #76
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
teejayevans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,220
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
If you choose to stay with group coverage, the risk you take is to become uninsurable later on or to be tied to employment until age 65. If you want to retire early, think about getting your own policy before you become "uninsurable".
Yes, all this is good, but what happens when you RE at 50, are healthy, and at
55 develop cancer and are treated, now what happens at 56?
If the insurance company jacks your rate from $200/month to $2000/month, then
what? You are deem uninsurable by any other company, you are now screwed,
what do you do??
TJ
__________________
teejayevans is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 07:45 AM   #77
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwsinron
My apologies. I edited my response and someone felt the need to quote it. Ill excuse myself from such a passionate discussion.
I'm confused -- you are upset that I quoted your own brief post, in full context?

__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 08:00 AM   #78
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7,408
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Ah yes - so healthcare joins the classics: pay off the mortgage, early SS, SWR, etc.,etc.

Like the ancient Ford vs Chevy, Rep. vs Dem - no solution will found here.

But at least once in while some info on the equivalent as to where to buy a car or get your absentee ballot.

And we all get to vent.

Morning coffee anyone??

heh heh heh 8)
__________________
unclemick is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 08:09 AM   #79
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemick2
Ah yes - so healthcare joins the classics: pay off the mortgage, early SS, SWR, etc.,etc.


A good observation. Actually, I think the ongoing and recurrent exchanges are for the most part a good thing, until things come unhinged as they invariably seem to do.

I've learned a thing or two about the point of view of the "the other side" and have in fact softened my stand on some issues based on that. I've come to realize that compromise will be a big part of any solution.

But if you take a step or two back and prune off the digressions related to passion, various personal demons or other "lapses in protocol" (it happens to all of us), the net effect still seems beneficial to me.

I hope I'm not the only one who finds some underlying merit in all this.
__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient
Old 05-16-2007, 08:24 AM   #80
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Re: US Healthcare Expensive and Inefficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by teejayevans
Yes, all this is good, but what happens when you RE at 50, are healthy, and at
55 develop cancer and are treated, now what happens at 56?
If the insurance company jacks your rate from $200/month to $2000/month, then
what? You are deem uninsurable by any other company, you are now screwed,
what do you do??
TJ
See, this is the mistaken thought process that so many people have. As an agent, part of my job is to process annual renewals for all of my customers. Even if there has been a large claim, your insurance rates don't get jacked up 2000 percent. Insurance carriers are prohibited by law from excessive rate increases in the individual market. if they raise your rates X percent, they have to do that for everyone in your membership group. Rate bumps are based on factors such as age bracket, claims experience of large groups of members, and overall inflation in the industry. 99 percent of the renewals I process anually are within 10% of the new business rates for the same or similar plan design. I don't understand where people get the idea that health insurance carriers single them out for huge rate increases. It's not like car insurance. You don't get a huge bump, just because you file a claim with an individual health insurance carrier.
__________________

__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:36 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.