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Old 08-09-2007, 12:23 PM   #61
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Let's take this a step further. Let's say that Microsoft decides to only employ Americans. They must pay minimum wage and they are expected to provide rich health insurance benefits to each employee. This costs, perhaps, two, three, four or more times as much as it does to outsource. We can't expect Microsoft to cut back on making profits for the common good, so they have two choices. They can either cheapen the quality of their products to compensate for the additional cost, or they can charge more for their products. Let's assume they can make up for the extra cost by charging more for their products. I don't know too many business in America that don't count on Microsoft products to maintain productivity. Now that it costs, perhaps, twice as much, to buy office equipment & technology, other businesses are forced to either cut back on employment or charge more for their products or services, which ultimately has an impact on the overall economy. Is this all worth making minimum wage jobs available to more Americans?
You don't know much about MS do you? They started out with only Americans. Then they started combing the world for the best minds and moved them to Redmond WA. Gradually they have responded to government pressure to establish centers in other countries. Just the interest earned on their cash reserves would put them in the Fortune Top 50. None of their employees has ever qualified as minimum wage.

The manufacture of PC components has always been done in the far east. Only assembly has been performed on these shores.
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:28 PM   #62
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Oh dear, I feared this would happen - you didn't read the article did you. It isn't going to work like that. Well, when you get time or are interested - read it, otherwise your comment is invalid I'm afraid.
I'll read it tonight, I promise.. Right now, I'm working so I can contribute to the free education system, Medicaid and Medicare.
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:31 PM   #63
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I'll read it tonight, I promise.. Right now, I'm working so I can contribute to the free education system, Medicaid and Medicare.
That's cool, I know we all have stuff to do.
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:31 PM   #64
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Then again, if it weren't for Microsoft, you wouldn't have a high-tech computer or mouse
Sigh.

Microsoft had absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the "high tech computer". Many early personal computers were created when Bill Gates was still in high school, and IBM and Apples original offerings had no microsoft content. The original IBM PC offered microsofts PC-DOS, Digital Research's far superior CPM/86, or UCSD's p-system. Since the latter two were about a hundred bucks more expensive, most chose the microsoft OS.

Had Microsoft never existed, CPM/86, IBM's OS/2 and Apples Mac OS, none of which contained a line of microsoft code, would have fit in perfectly and since both CPM/86 and OS/2 were fundamentally faster, more powerful and a lot less buggy...we'd probably have advanced far further in a shorter time frame.

And the mouse and graphical user interfaces were invented by Xerox and used heavily in apple and other products for years before microsoft ever adopted the technology.

Microsoft also has very little influence over the cost of a computer. The primary cost components are the microprocessor, disk drive, motherboard, memory and display screen. None of which are made by microsoft.

I guess at this point I'm simply shocked at how many times a poster can be so horribly wrong and not run away from sheer embarrassment.
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:32 PM   #65
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You don't know much about MS do you? They started out with only Americans. Then they started combing the world for the best minds and moved them to Redmond WA. Gradually they have responded to government pressure to establish centers in other countries. Just the interest earned on their cash reserves would put them in the Fortune Top 50. None of their employees has ever qualified as minimum wage.

The manufacture of PC components has always been done in the far east. Only assembly has been performed on these shores.
Then, what's Mike complaining about?
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:36 PM   #66
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The bigger point though, is what effect would take place when and if corporations (like Microsoft) were run for the employees interest rather than for the stockholders.

Some of the posters evidently think that would be great. Others of us know better. Just take a look at France to see how their socialistic system is struggling. And even they realize that they have to change to a more growth oriented model.
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:39 PM   #67
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Sigh.

Microsoft had absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the "high tech computer". Many early personal computers were created when Bill Gates was still in high school, and IBM and Apples original offerings had no microsoft content. The original IBM PC offered microsofts PC-DOS, Digital Research's far superior CPM/86, or UCSD's p-system. Since the latter two were about a hundred bucks more expensive, most chose the microsoft OS.

Had Microsoft never existed, CPM/86, IBM's OS/2 and Apples Mac OS, none of which contained a line of microsoft code, would have fit in perfectly and since both CPM/86 and OS/2 were fundamentally faster, more powerful and a lot less buggy...we'd probably have advanced far further in a shorter time frame.

And the mouse and graphical user interfaces were invented by Xerox and used heavily in apple and other products for years before microsoft ever adopted the technology.

I guess at this point I'm simply shocked at how many times a poster can be so horribly wrong and not run away from sheer embarrassment.
Sorry Cute...guess I'm just too young to know about pre-microsoft times. I didn't have time to research before my comment 'cuz I'm too busy right now doing other more important things (like planning for all the taxes I'm going to have to pay for early retiree healthcare). You are right, and as always, I am ashamed and embarrassed. Bill Gates lacks intelligence and had nothing to contribute to today's computer technology. Microsoft s****s and we should all boycott their technology and their employees should go on strike until they agree to go non-profit (as I am sure Apple and IBM would have done if they had the largest share of the market.)
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:46 PM   #68
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I didn't have time to research before my comment
Seems to be a common problem.

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'cuz I'm too busy right now doing other more important things (like planning for all the taxes I'm going to have to pay for early retiree healthcare).
Ah yes, the hatred of the parasitic early retiree rises to the surface again...

Coming from having spent two weeks trying to get doctors offices billing departments to return my calls about getting copies of office visit statements, approximately four hours filling out blue cross reimbursement paperwork, and a two hour trip to the pharmacy to get prescription forms filled out for submission...I think I have a fresher perspective on the ridiculous costs of health care.

All this because BC never bothered to send me my coverage cards and I had to pay out of pocket.

About 15-20 hours of my time to get reimbursed for three office visits and 7 prescriptions.

And ten bucks says I get back all of the forms with notes scribbled all over them and have to redo them again. Practically guaranteed.

Gosh, and I suppose by your rationale...microsoft could have solved all of this for all four billion people in the US!
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:11 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Sigh.

Microsoft had absolutely nothing to do with the creation of the "high tech computer". Many early personal computers were created when Bill Gates was still in high school, and IBM and Apples original offerings had no microsoft content. The original IBM PC offered microsofts PC-DOS, Digital Research's far superior CPM/86, or UCSD's p-system. Since the latter two were about a hundred bucks more expensive, most chose the microsoft OS.

Had Microsoft never existed, CPM/86, IBM's OS/2 and Apples Mac OS, none of which contained a line of microsoft code, would have fit in perfectly and since both CPM/86 and OS/2 were fundamentally faster, more powerful and a lot less buggy...we'd probably have advanced far further in a shorter time frame.

And the mouse and graphical user interfaces were invented by Xerox and used heavily in apple and other products for years before microsoft ever adopted the technology.

Microsoft also has very little influence over the cost of a computer. The primary cost components are the microprocessor, disk drive, motherboard, memory and display screen. None of which are made by microsoft.

I guess at this point I'm simply shocked at how many times a poster can be so horribly wrong and not run away from sheer embarrassment.
However, if Microsoft hadn't blatantly stolen Apple's operating system, and convinced all of us we need computers, then Intel would be much smaller, and they would have had no use for your services, no??

The one thing Apple was BAD at was marketing, the ONLY thing Bill Gates is good at is marketing........Bill Gates is still a crook, but a very good one.........
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:16 PM   #70
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... as always, I am ashamed and embarrassed. Bill Gates lacks intelligence and had nothing to contribute to today's computer technology.
For once I heartily agree with you MKLD. You should be.

And once again, you go on to prove it again in your very next sentence...
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:26 PM   #71
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However, if Microsoft hadn't blatantly stolen Apple's operating system, and convinced all of us we need computers, then Intel would be much smaller, and they would have had no use for your services, no??

The one thing Apple was BAD at was marketing, the ONLY thing Bill Gates is good at is marketing........Bill Gates is still a crook, but a very good one.........
Well, actually it was IBM that did most of the convincing, not microsoft. Microsoft had a very small and not particularly active role until they broke with IBM and asserted Windows 3.0 as the successor to PC-DOS vs OS/2. It was a lot less Bill Gates' genius and a lot more of IBM somehow turning from the most powerful marketing machine in the US into a bunch of nincompoops that couldnt stop stepping on their own dicks.

In both the PC-DOS over CPM/86 and Windows over OS/2 bonanza, it was more a function of cost and availability. IBM wanted to adopt the machine back and own the hardware, operating system, applications software, communications, consulting, service and support. Microsoft just wanted to fap an operating system on you for $99 and let you figure it out on your own.

Cheap and simple won.

Its a marvel. Really, it is. PC-DOS sucked. Windows sucked until about SP2 for XP. Microsofts language products sucked and still suck. Microsofts office products are decent but slow and hugely bloated.

Cheap and easy won. IT departments and individuals found that they didnt want their OS from one company, their word processor/spreadsheet/database/presentation graphics all from different people. It was too expensive and too hard to work out problems when they happened. Quality didnt really matter.

Hmm, is there a parallel between this and what we're seeing with product and service quality across the board today?

So in the end, microsoft got to sell their customers almost exactly what IBM wanted to achieve...minus the hardware. And its a shame. OS/2 version 2.0 released in 1992 may have been a better product in almost every way than any Windows OS until XP.

Conversely, Apple is and for most of its history...been brilliant at marketing. At least when Steve Jobs was there. They sell a routine product with no special hardware and a decent software offering, get people to pay double for it, and then all those customers become missionaries for the product.
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:46 PM   #72
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Then, what's Mike complaining about?
I started off by stating Microsoft, on the bottom of it's mice, has a label saying "Designed in U.S.A." instead of "Made in China". This, while true, is a ploy to avert the buyer from the global economy of cheap overseas labor building most all high tect stuff. If you don't quite think about what you really are reading on that label, you can get a warm fuzzy feeling when what you should feel is more like a cold, slimy feeling.

Of course building computer mice isn't the kind of jobs we need, but how about HDTV manufacturing? People, you know what is next - Chinese cars and trucks. They are coming, and they will blow away the prices of U.S. made vehicles, see ya later. Oh yes, we lost the TV manufacturing jobs to Japan, next is our automobile jobs. Pray tell, what are we going to build to support our lifestyles - Oh I forgot, Bush said to start a small business and bake bread, silly me!
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:56 PM   #73
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I started off by stating Microsoft, on the bottom of it's mice, has a label saying "Designed in U.S.A." instead of "Made in China". This, while true, is a ploy to avert the buyer from the global economy of cheap overseas labor building most all high tect stuff. If you don't quite think about what you really are reading on that label, you can get a warm fuzzy feeling when what you should feel is more like a cold, slimy feeling.

Of course building computer mice isn't the kind of jobs we need, but how about HDTV manufacturing? People, you know what is next - Chinese cars and trucks. They are coming, and they will blow away the prices of U.S. made vehicles, see ya later. Oh yes, we lost the TV manufacturing jobs to Japan, next is our automobile jobs. Pray tell, what are we going to build to support our lifestyles - Oh I forgot, Bush said to start a small business and bake bread, silly me!
Show me whose willing to buy a Chinese car? Somehow, Honda and Toyota have found a way to profit........
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:06 PM   #74
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Unless i'm mistaken, Honda is the one doing the importing. Been a while since I looked at it.

Heck, people bought Yugo's. They'll buy chinese cars too if they're cheap enough.

All I know is that all the chrome is going to peel off of them in 3 months.
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:12 PM   #75
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Unless i'm mistaken, Honda is the one doing the importing. Been a while since I looked at it.

Heck, people bought Yugo's. They'll buy chinese cars too if they're cheap enough.

All I know is that all the chrome is going to peel off of them in 3 months.
Yes, the chrome will peel off the first ones in 3 months, just like the first Datsuns and Toyotas. But they will get better just like Toyota and Honda did. Oh by the way, I bought an American (designed) vehicle last year - a Chevy HHR. Guess where it was built?
+
+
+
+
+
+
+
Mexico - no jobs for that model here.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:29 PM   #76
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Since ruger has generally characterized me as being either rich or a God fearing idiot I have to add. I do not believe in God, at all. I am also probably one of the few on this board who will not be able to retire until my wife reaches the age where she qualifies for Medicare (if she lives ling enough) and I am older than she is. I would rather work the extra 10-15 years required, than have a universal health care program. I am a victim of this government's only heath care for everyone program. Some call it the military and VA. I have been seriously disappointed with care from both the military and VA. I am adamantly opposed to socialized health care. I do believe it will get here soon enough, but I do not believe it will be as effective or inexpensive as many seem to be touting.

Personally I would much rather fight against an insurance company and take them to court than have to fight against the federal government and take them to court. It used to find it funny when my wife was covered by both Tricare and her company insurance. The argument went something like this.
Insurance: Orr policy is to be subordinate to ALL other insurance companies.
Wife: Tricare is a federal insurance program and they are subordinate by law.
Insurance: I don't care we are subordinate. Tricare must pay first and we will cover everything left over.
Wife: can you hold a minute I have another call.
(Wife returns with Tricare representative)
Tricare: Hello this is @@@# with Tricare. We are subordinate to all other insurance policies.
Insurance: Sorry but our company policy to only to pay whatever any other existing policy won't.
Tricare: Sorry but it is federal regulation that we pay last.
Insurance: Sorry we will pay first.
Do you think you will be able to adequately fight against federal regulation (normally with the force of law) more effectively than the policy of a private company? I doubt it.

Before you get too down on the rich and the top 10% being selfish and uncaring, that is the description of many if not most on this board.
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Old 08-09-2007, 03:33 PM   #77
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I would also like to add the rantings of some of the people in this thread sound like the teachings in the last chapters of The Jungle. All socialist rhetoric. It hasn't worked in the past and I doubt it will work now.
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Old 08-09-2007, 04:02 PM   #78
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Since ruger has generally characterized me as being either rich or a God fearing idiot I have to add. I do not believe in God, at all. I am also probably one of the few on this board who will not be able to retire until my wife reaches the age where she qualifies for Medicare (if she lives ling enough) and I am older than she is. I would rather work the extra 10-15 years required, than have a universal health care program. I am a victim of this government's only heath care for everyone program. Some call it the military and VA. I have been seriously disappointed with care from both the military and VA. I am adamantly opposed to socialized health care. I do believe it will get here soon enough, but I do not believe it will be as effective or inexpensive as many seem to be touting.
Universal health care is not socialized health care (where your doctor works for the gvt).

What is your point of view about medicare then? It is Universal Health care for the more than 65 year old. What people are asking is the same thing for under 65.
You d'rather work 10 to 15 year more, Fine but why preventing others to pay into a Govt insurance if they would like to rather than having to work to get the insurance?
Many people beyond a certain age or with disabilities are uninsurable and need to apply for a high risk pool. State govt with such a pool channels you to an insurance carrier in order to be covered. Problem is: This is very expensive. It would be better to leverage the cost with all the healthy individuals out there. This way we would pay about the same at 20 and at 60 years old.
States have programs to insure children of poor families at a discount.
Those three programs plus the VA are the seeds of a system that could become universal. As Martha mentioned above problem is the system is fragmented and leave some on the sideline.
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Old 08-09-2007, 04:05 PM   #79
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Universal health care is not socialized health care
Perhaps there is a real distinction in your mind. In practice many believe the two systems are the same.

Again...

For those that think that a universal care system will cover everybody, provide for all of the best medications, provide every needed procedure without waiting, and not charge anybody too much....

Then I say you are dreaming
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Old 08-09-2007, 04:17 PM   #80
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Perhaps there is a real distinction in your mind. In practice many believe the two systems are the same.

Again...

For those that think that a universal care system will cover everybody, provide for all of the best medications, provide every needed procedure without waiting, and not charge anybody too much....

Then I say you are dreaming
The joke when I was in the military was you'd go to the clinic because your arm was severed and they'd give you 800mg Motirn and put you on quarters for a week. 800mg motrin=military candy.

Perinova--meidcare is the same as socialized medicine, however the biggest difference is the doctors seen are also compensated by the private sector. Under a universal healthcare system the government holds the purse strings, even if the doctors are paid by an insurance company, the insurance is paid for by the government. the government say we will pay you this much, but if it less than what it is costing the insurer they will either go bankrupt or close thier doors. If it is adequate the doctors will start to charge more, either way it is no better than what we currently have. Without the private sector providing a counter balance the meidcare/medicaid system would go bankrupt yesterday.
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