Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-09-2007, 04:18 PM   #81
Recycles dryer sheets
perinova's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs View Post
Let's take this a step further. Let's say that Microsoft decides to only employ Americans. They must pay minimum wage and they are expected to provide rich health insurance benefits to each employee. This costs, perhaps, two, three, four or more times as much as it does to outsource. We can't expect Microsoft to cut back on making profits for the common good, so they have two choices. They can either cheapen the quality of their products to compensate for the additional cost, or they can charge more for their products. Let's assume they can make up for the extra cost by charging more for their products. I don't know too many business in America that don't count on Microsoft products to maintain productivity. Now that it costs, perhaps, twice as much, to buy office equipment & technology, other businesses are forced to either cut back on employment or charge more for their products or services, which ultimately has an impact on the overall economy. Is this all worth making minimum wage jobs available to more Americans?
That's exactly the conundrum of the auto industry these days. Healthcare of the employees is too expensive to be competitive in the market place because competitor in Europe and Asia don't have to pay those cost: since hey are spread over everyone in the society!!!
__________________

__________________
perinova is offline  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-09-2007, 04:29 PM   #82
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
MasterBlaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,359
So your case for Universal Coverage boils down to protectionism for the auto industry ? You'd support the UAW better by Ford rather than that Toyota you drive as opposed to supporting universal healthcare.

Healthcare is expensive for the domestics OEMs but that really isn't their major problem staying profitable is it ? They just need to build cars and trucks that people want to buy.
__________________

__________________
MasterBlaster is offline  
What about the Children?
Old 08-09-2007, 04:52 PM   #83
Full time employment: Posting here.
MikeD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Leesburg, VA
Posts: 805
What about the Children?

nm
__________________
MikeD is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 04:56 PM   #84
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by perinova View Post
That's exactly the conundrum of the auto industry these days. Healthcare of the employees is too expensive to be competitive in the market place because competitor in Europe and Asia don't have to pay those cost: since hey are spread over everyone in the society!!!
So your solution is to universalize and force the evil, rich corporations to pay for people's health care costs in the form of excessive taxes....That way, they can't get away from those costs by going over seas to find labor?

Great idea! I'm sure that'll bring in a lot more stateside jobs!
__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 05:37 PM   #85
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beststash View Post
The key to universal healthcare is simply to end the war
Yeah! We'll end the war and then we'll go back to that Universal Healthcare system that we had before the war. Oh, wait a minute . . .

I'm sure you want the US to stay in Iraq as long as needed to assure Iraq is stable, and so do I. Still, we need to be careful about these projections of the windfall bounty that will be available once we come home. This talk of the vast sums of money that will be freed up for the puppies-and-flowers program d'jour will be familiar to most people old enough to remember the early seventies. It's just as fallacious now as it was then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikex View Post
The problem is the place corporations employ people is moving out of the country, and the reason, everyone knows it, is lower wages. I look at where things are made all the time, and a Microsoft mouse I picked up the other day said "Designed in U.S.A." They didn't want to put where it was manufactured (China, Malaysia, etc.) but where it was designed. Hey that's great, Microsoft employed 10 or 15 engineers to design a mouse in the United States, but employed 100 or 500 to make them in another country. This is the way it is going.
Right. And if Microsoft didn't move that production offshore (or if they hadn't bought and re-labelled a product built by a foreign company) , then they would have been outcompeted by a foreign company who would have sold you that mouse for a buck less. Those of us who own Microsoft stock are happy that they did this. And those 15 designers working for Microsoft are happy to have a job. Every US company that remains competitive and in business, even if it has to perform some functions overseas to remain competitive, is still paying US taxes on their profits (incl supporting the social programs that seem to be so popular). You can bet the Shinn Moon People's Production Factory Number Seven pays no US taxes.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now  
Old 08-09-2007, 06:01 PM   #86
Recycles dryer sheets
Beststash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Yeah! We'll end the war and then we'll go back to that Universal Healthcare system that we had before the war. Oh, wait a minute . . .
I said that the war is making anything else (domestic) just "white noise".


Quote:
I'm sure you want the US to stay in Iraq as long as needed to assure Iraq is stable, and so do I.
That would be a "negative". I didn't care anything about Iraq before we invaded and occupied it and I still don't. Yes, we screwed up their country but we got rid of the "evil Saddam". Carry on!!

Quote:
This talk of the vast sums of money that will be freed up for the puppies-and-flowers program d'jour will be familiar to most people old enough to remember the early seventies. It's just as fallacious now as it was then.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I was just returning from Southeast Asia and might have missed it.

I am for Universal Healthcare in principal. I think it is simply a question of priorities and I think that MOST Americans would welcome it also.

Peace
__________________
Beststash is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 06:16 PM   #87
Recycles dryer sheets
perinova's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster View Post
So your case for Universal Coverage boils down to protectionism for the auto industry ? You'd support the UAW better by Ford rather than that Toyota you drive as opposed to supporting universal healthcare.

Healthcare is expensive for the domestics OEMs but that really isn't their major problem staying profitable is it ? They just need to build cars and trucks that people want to buy.
It is only one facet of the problems:

Quote:
Benefit costs account for 28.8 percent of compensation costs for private sector production workers in the U.S., compared with 17.0 percent in Japan, 16.6 percent in Canada and 17.6 percent in the United Kingdom. Three-fourths of the difference in benefit costs stems from the private health insurance system in the U.S.
The Auto Industry Crisis is a Health Care Crisis (April 15, 2005) - Working Life
(disclaimer: I know nothing about this site)

It is enlighting that a universal healthcare would benefit both corporations and individuals. I would have to conclude that only the health insurance industry and workers not paying for their insurance at the present time would not benefit from a universal health care.
__________________
perinova is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 06:29 PM   #88
Recycles dryer sheets
perinova's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs View Post
So your solution is to universalize and force the evil, rich corporations to pay for people's health care costs in the form of excessive taxes....That way, they can't get away from those costs by going over seas to find labor?

Great idea! I'm sure that'll bring in a lot more stateside jobs!
I didn't say that it should be paid by anyone specifically... It is paid somewhere in the GDP today, tomorrow, whenever...

Think about it the money comes from the same place either your wallet, your employer's wallet, your government's wallet.
The government doesn't have any money other than your and your employer's taxes. Your money comes from companies (either you get dividends or you are employed). Your employer's money comes from you the consumer or you the stock holder.

Sorry we are forced to pay for health care because we sometimes get sick. I hate it too - I'd rather be healthy always but that's not how it goes.
__________________
perinova is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 07:48 PM   #89
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 860
Perinova -

I understand what you are trying to say. - We all pay for it one way or the other anyway....but that's not the problem. The problem is that in a universalized system, the majority of people who are using the system do not pay a dime for it (because they aren't paying the taxes)...it's the businesses and individuals with incomes above a certain amount who end up paying for the majority of the system.

With that in mind, we have to remember that a universal healthcare system with zero out of pocket responsibility for recipients is extremely costly....particularly in a country where everyone expects the best service and technology and will sue their doctor for millions of dollars at the drop of the hat if they are dis-satisfied with outcomes. How do we know that we can tax the "rich" enough to pay for it all?, and if we can't, then what happens next?

At some point, some of the "rich" might decide the extra taxes they have to pay aren't worth the extra hard work. Tax rates that are too high can result in higher unemployment rates, or even less revenue for the gov't as businesses cut back on employment or as people decide they aren't going to work as hard when most of the money they make is taken away before they even get their paycheck. What happens when we hit that threshold?

Americans aren't used to paying tax rates above 30%...Americans aren't used to waiting their turn for services. There has to be some give and take. There is no "utopian" system out there. Public healthcare systems will always wind up with wait times as funding dwindles. Private systems will always be more expensive as expertise, technology and innovation thrive.
__________________
mykidslovedogs is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 07:59 PM   #90
Recycles dryer sheets
Beststash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs View Post
At some point, some of the "rich" might decide the extra taxes they have to pay aren't worth the extra hard work. Tax rates that are too high can result in higher unemployment rates, or even less revenue for the gov't as businesses cut back on employment or as people decide they aren't going to work as hard when most of the money they make is taken away before they even get their paycheck. What happens when we hit that threshold?

Americans aren't used to paying tax rates above 30%...Americans aren't used to waiting their turn for services. There has to be some give and take. There is no "utopian" system out there. Public healthcare systems will always wind up with wait times as funding dwindles. Private systems will always be more expensive as expertise, technology and innovation thrive.
LOL - That was funny!! You need to try meditation - it is very good for stress.

Peace

Peace
__________________
Beststash is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 08:17 PM   #91
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg shoot-dog.jpg (12.5 KB, 74 views)
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 08:17 PM   #92
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
bright eyed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,891
seems like attracts like...
__________________
If i think of something clever to say, i'll put it here...
bright eyed is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 10:03 PM   #93
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20
Any one who says bush is not an idiot, watch this at youtube and then with a strait face, try to tell me when the cameras are shut off he is sharp as a razor.



At some point we have to say, this idiot is leading us?
We must look like a bunch of hillbillys to the world.
It is like a linebacker having the brain of a 3 year old chimp. I know that is not far form the truth.
And yes when you are compeating with companys from every industrial nation in the free world and they all to the one have universal healt care we are the child left behind.
We are half way there, we have medicaid medicare, health care for vetrans, If we can not take care of a sick child, what the hell are the people that are getting vets health care fighting for any way?
Oh yah Oil, No not oil, contracts for halliburten? No bush said he did not know anything about that.
What for? so the middle class can dissapear form the country?
so the poor can take one more of those big burger jobs that bush created and work 3 jobs which he said was the amercian way?
No I think it is so the rich can get richer, so bush can feel like he is richard the lionhearted spreading his christian crap through out the world with christ on his shoulder.
We need leaders in this country, we need them fast. There is not a lot of years we can keep running up the deficet, pour money into forgin countrys while leaving our bridges and road and health care system go in our own.
before we destroy it.
Bush is to narow minded and to short sighted to see anything different.
the United States is currently the world's top donor of economic aid, providing $16.254 billion in 2003 according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
With all the other waist like over spending on the military, a war that costs ten billion a week, I can see how health care has no $ for it.
But how is killing Iraq's people keeping us healthy and safe again?
We had a hand full of extrem criminals hijack planes, We did not have an army attack us. and at that it was planed by people in afganastan, not Iraq. Most of the hijackers came form saudi arabia, that country teaches its children to hate us. to kill us, and yet bush kisses the nuts of the saudi princes?
WTF, the bush family has been in the pocket of the oil cartel and the saudi family for many years.
When will the people who vote for the republicans wise up and learn that they are not working for you, for us.
Republicans work for themselfs, I am not saying every democrat is a person who does not take advantage of his situation, far from that. but the republicans whole pholosphy is to get what you can walk on who you have to, to get what you can, and who dies with the most $ wins.
Not an idology I can live with. and if you want any kind of country that is worth living in, neither would you.
__________________
ruger is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 10:08 PM   #94
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 309
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikex View Post
I have no clue who paid for my public school education - I do know I didn't ask for anyone to. But I sure as heck didn't get asked either to pay for Suzy and Johnny's 3 baby kids education, you know the couple that quit high school (the high school I'm paying for) and have minimum wage jobs, oh but they decided to go ahead and have 3 kids. Yea they forgot to ask me if they should have the kids. Well, if we are going to pay for those kid's education by no choice of our own - forced by law or we get fined or our house taken away, by your logic we should also pay for the kids to be healthy. I can't wait for your answer as your mind has logical processes I am fascinated with.

No offense meant.
I was just trying to get you to think about the big picture. Someone else paid for your public school education. What did they owe you? Think about it this way, The kids you are paying to educate now will get jobs and help make payments to your ss and medicare. What you are giving now for education comes back to you later. If a generation as a whole get selfish, then later in their life they will reap what they have sown or in this case what they haven't sown.
__________________
homestead is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 10:43 PM   #95
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20
The free market economy let go, works only if some people are poor.
If it did not have poor people it could not work.
The idea of capitolisim came at a time when the feudal system was the order of the day, in the early part of the 20th cent. we called it robber barons, when very few owned everything, and the poor worked for those that owned all, Any one remember I think Ford the country singer sang it, I owe my soul to the compnay store?
It was a time when the corporation owned every thing, your home your job, and when you got paid you did not see any money, you just got a credit at the company store where you got every thing.
Capitolisim was the idea that the little guy could be his own boss and work for himself. Not the corporations have stolen this idea and made it their own, and pundits for the big corps. like limbaugh pass this off as something to fight for, and you out there that are brain dead, are working for these criminals all the time being mind controled to think you are working for freedom or your own best interest.
Wake up and smell the coffee. You are about to drink the kool-aid, those people at jones town thought they were working for a better day too.
turned out not to be quite the day they wanted.
It has been proven time and again, when people are paid fair living wages, when they are treated like humans not so much company property, when they do not have to make choices of food for their kids or health care.
when they do not have to work when they are sick, They are better and more productive workers.
Do you ever think the kid making your burgers does not picke one up off the floor and you have eaten it or worse? You have and just dont know it. That is because when you pay someone 5$ and hour, they dont care. not about their job or you. And Communisim is a nonproducer, maybe so but neither is capitolisim, There has to by a combination of the two that is better than both.
__________________
ruger is offline  
Old 08-09-2007, 11:23 PM   #96
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,049
I will not get involved in health care discussions with industry spokespersons.
I will not get involved in health care discussions with industry spokespersons.
I will not get involved in health care discussions with industry spokespersons.
I will not get...
__________________
eridanus is offline  
Old 08-10-2007, 12:03 AM   #97
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 20
no one says you have to
__________________
ruger is offline  
Old 08-10-2007, 01:00 AM   #98
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Dang my ignore list is getting rather enormous.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline  
Old 08-10-2007, 01:19 AM   #99
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
martyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bossier City
Posts: 2,182
Ruger, you have a lot of nerve calling anybody an idiot when you yourself are such a ridiculous example of education. Have you, or more precisely, CAN you even read your own posts? You write and spell worse than any 3rd grader and yet believe you are intellectually superior to the leader of the free world? You are definitely an assclown.
__________________
“Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.”
-John F. Kennedy

“Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?” - Edgar Bergen
martyb is online now  
Old 08-10-2007, 01:42 AM   #100
Moderator Emeritus
laurence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 5,234
This thread looks just about ready to be locked down.
__________________

__________________
laurence is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Obama offers universal health care plan Trek Health and Early Retirement 268 11-21-2007 11:33 AM
New Health Care Proposal -- If it happens what does it mean? chinaco FIRE and Money 9 06-11-2007 04:04 PM
End of life health care lets-retire Health and Early Retirement 34 01-31-2007 02:24 PM
Health Care Costs BigMike Life after FIRE 39 05-21-2006 03:37 PM
Vanguard Health Care distibution LOL! FIRE and Money 2 03-11-2006 07:01 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:48 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.