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Old 12-08-2011, 11:23 AM   #61
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People said being gay was a choice; then it became clear that no one would choose to be gay if it were not inborn. People view being overweight as a lack of willpower; the more scientific studies I read, as well as from my own recent experiences, the more I see that overweight people have fundamental brain and bodily differences that make them gain weight doing the same things I do to remain weight-stable. I imagine the longer I live the more I will be convinced that in the end, 99% of what people do is just following out pre-planned tracks laid down by their genes, environment, and circumstances, and that very little we choose with free will really changes how our life turns out.
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:59 AM   #62
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People said being gay was a choice; then it became clear that no one would choose to be gay if it were not inborn. People view being overweight as a lack of willpower; the more scientific studies I read, as well as from my own recent experiences, the more I see that overweight people have fundamental brain and bodily differences that make them gain weight doing the same things I do to remain weight-stable. I imagine the longer I live the more I will be convinced that in the end, 99% of what people do is just following out pre-planned tracks laid down by their genes, environment, and circumstances, and that very little we choose with free will really changes how our life turns out.

Amen!
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:02 PM   #63
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I imagine the longer I live the more I will be convinced that in the end, 99% of what people do is just following out pre-planned tracks laid down by their genes, environment, and circumstances, and that very little we choose with free will really changes how our life turns out.
There might be *some* truth to this, but my fear is that some people will use it as an excuse to not even try to change the outcome. I think theories of predestination are often misused to absolve oneself from responsibility and blame for bad outcomes.
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:16 PM   #64
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People said being gay was a choice; then it became clear that no one would choose to be gay if it were not inborn. People view being overweight as a lack of willpower; the more scientific studies I read, as well as from my own recent experiences, the more I see that overweight people have fundamental brain and bodily differences that make them gain weight doing the same things I do to remain weight-stable. I imagine the longer I live the more I will be convinced that in the end, 99% of what people do is just following out pre-planned tracks laid down by their genes, environment, and circumstances, and that very little we choose with free will really changes how our life turns out.
I agree mostly. It's adaptive for our species to have both non-reproducing adults and people who can get by on very little food, hence we evolved to have a diversity of genders and body types. I agree with you, I never judge an obese person as being weak-willed or of lesser worth than an athlete. On the other hand, being a former obese person living with a natural athlete, I know it is possible for at least some of us to control our weight to some extent, if we work much harder at it than the natural athletes. But not everyone enjoys the lifestyle of ER or has the motivation to put so much time and energy into it. When I see an obese person, I see the former me, putting their limited time and energy into workaholism, or altruism, or unresolved family problems or other sources of pain.
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:55 PM   #65
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I 100% agree that no one chooses to be overweight. Gyms are full of overweight people, and some of them I have been seeing for at least a year, so they are not just now getting started. A tiny amount of calories is all that many people need to maintain weight, to lose they would have to cut even more.

In my own case, if I spend an exercise 1000 kc in a given day, I will have to eat more that day and often the next. OTOH, if I lie around some day and only spend 200 exercise calories my appetite tends to drop off. I am not at all sure that I could count calories, or use portion control. We are evolutionarily set to eat all we want.

I do think that the idea that many people are gaining weight because plates are bigger or somesuch makes very little sense. How about seconds?

Still, there are big group differences, and I think big diet differences. Like it is a lot easier to lose weight on a very low carb diet than to just eat smaller portions of the standard diet.

A relatively small number fail while adhering to low carb; many more choose to no longer adhere. Why I don't know, but if you look at the studies, adherence to low carb regimes falls off after a time. Maybe some people just don't like being limited to meat and fish and cheese and green vegetables.

As to overall health, I really don't know. But I know a couple of overweight people who went for lap bands or something similar. Low carb can't be less healthy than this, can it?

Ha
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:06 PM   #66
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A relatively small number fail while adhering to low carb; many more choose to no longer adhere. Why I don't know, but if you look at the studies, adherence to low carb regimes falls off after a time. Maybe some people just don't like being limited to meat and fish and cheese and green vegetables.
Atkins interviewed a lot of people to see why they stopped going low-carb, even when it was working for them, and he discovered that for most, it was the pressure from the mainstream media, friends, and doctors.

I can relate to that. The message of "fat is bad" is relentless. You have to have a lot of "courage of your convictions" to stand up to that.

For example, last night on the nightly news, Brian Williams reported on how many breakfast cereals contain up to 56% sugar. How did the story end? Like this: "One nutritionist stated that sugary cereals are almost as bad as bacon."
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:47 PM   #67
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My dogs are purty - pretty fat so I listened to the vet and got them diet dog food.

Now they sneak over when I'm not looking and eat the cat's food. And they want to go out play ( short trips) more often cause their reward is BACON! - Barking Bacon treats.

heh heh heh - At least twice a week - Waffle House get two scrambled with the fresh tomato (aka lower carb) and BACON! Maybe we should Na.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:25 PM   #68
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Atkins interviewed a lot of people to see why they stopped going low-carb, even when it was working for them, and he discovered that for most, it was the pressure from the mainstream media, friends, and doctors.

I can relate to that. The message of "fat is bad" is relentless. You have to have a lot of "courage of your convictions" to stand up to that.

For example, last night on the nightly news, Brian Williams reported on how many breakfast cereals contain up to 56% sugar. How did the story end? Like this: "One nutritionist stated that sugary cereals are almost as bad as bacon."
Like Gary Taubes said in a talk I heard, "My wife made me increase my life insurance."

I really do not know what diet is best, or even if diet matters much at keeping you alive. But I enjoy the low carb, and it does make me feel good and it keeps my sugar in check. I could not make it on some vegan diet or some strict fat restricting diet. I like my paté, my bacon, my eggs, and my steaks.

It does seem that the fat and cholesterol police have run way out ahead of the evidence. Then again, Uncle Mick has greatly improved his cholesterol readings with what I take to be a low fat diet but I am not sure.

It seems that everyone on every side of this debate has an agenda, but to my non-specialist eye the large studies seem to suggest that fat has little to do with anything, and that statins make a very small but definite contribution to lessened all cause mortality, at least in middle-aged men.

If people feel that it makes sense to ride motorcycles because they like it, I feel that it may well make sense to eat low carb because you enjoy the food, and because you are rarely hungry and can eat until you are satisfied, even at some unknowable but on average small, increased risk.

Ha
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:44 PM   #69
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It seems that everyone on every side of this debate has an agenda
Absolutely!
And since everyone on every side can muster some more or less credible scientific evidence for their agenda, I think it comes down to us picking the anecdotes we like and ignoring the rest.

Personally, DW and I were converted to the low carb, high fat regime last spring, and since then we have both lost a lot of weight and have never felt better in our lives. So it seems to make sense for us. However, I also believe genetics plays a huge role in this, so it's different strokes for different folks.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:45 PM   #70
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I can relate to that. The message of "fat is bad" is relentless. You have to have a lot of "courage of your convictions" to stand up to that.
I can't bring myself to have any kind of "convictions" when it comes to diet. There are so many evidence and counter-evidence in the field of nutrition and so many fictions sold as facts by agribusiness under the disguise of "scientific studies", that I am not sure anyone knows anything.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:18 PM   #71
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I can't bring myself to have any kind of "convictions" when it comes to diet. There are so many evidence and counter-evidence in the field of nutrition and so many fictions sold as facts by agribusiness under the disguise of "scientific studies", that I am not sure anyone knows anything.
+1

I have a sneaky feeling that "eat a little of everything, and get plenty of exercise and sleep" is good all-round advice for most people. After that, it's all up to our genes.

My opinion only, of course. Incidentally, my SO is over, and we just devoured a bottle of cab and a loaf of hot, crusty sourdough bread
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:02 PM   #72
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Come on, there's lots we know about diet, and it's not that complicated. Eat high quality, unprocessed foods. Few would argue against statements like:

- If you're going to eat higher carb, get those starchy carbs from whole grains, beans, and starchy vegetables. Avoid refined flours.

- Consume a large volume and variety of non-starchy vegetables

- 1-2 pieces of fruit a day is a reasonable reward, especially citrus, melon and berries

- Add healthy fats to the diet from fish, avacado, flax, nuts, etc.

- Avoid sugar and partially hydrogenated oils

- Drink enough water for 5 clear urinations a day

- Limit alcohol to no more than 1-2 drinks a day

IMO there's not that much difference between the high carb and low carb diets. One eats more whole grains, the other more meat and diary. Get those other factors in order, and I doubt it matters much.
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Old 12-09-2011, 04:00 AM   #73
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Come on, there's lots we know about diet, and it's not that complicated. Eat high quality, unprocessed foods. Few would argue against statements like:

- If you're going to eat higher carb, get those starchy carbs from whole grains, beans, and starchy vegetables. Avoid refined flours.

- Consume a large volume and variety of non-starchy vegetables

- 1-2 pieces of fruit a day is a reasonable reward, especially citrus, melon and berries

- Add healthy fats to the diet from fish, avacado, flax, nuts, etc.

- Avoid sugar and partially hydrogenated oils

- Drink enough water for 5 clear urinations a day

- Limit alcohol to no more than 1-2 drinks a day

IMO there's not that much difference between the high carb and low carb diets. One eats more whole grains, the other more meat and diary. Get those other factors in order, and I doubt it matters much.
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:38 AM   #74
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- Limit alcohol to no more than 1-2 drinks a day.
I was with you until this...
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Old 12-09-2011, 09:49 AM   #75
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A couple of thoughts:

1. I go through periods where I lose a few pounds and other periods where I gain a few pounds; periods where I track everything I eat and periods where I throw caution to the wind and eat anything I please. I always come back naturally to pretty much exactly the same weight that I've been all my adult life. So I'm convinced genes are 99% in play.

2. I live in Minnesota with extreme variations in weather. In fall/winter I crave (and eat more) carbs, sugars, and fats. In spring/summer I don't crave these things quite as much. I see this as a natural seasonal cycle to which our bodies are attuned.

3. The key to weight maintenance or losing a few lbs for me is small but frequent portions of good quality protein. I like oatmeal a lot but if that is all I have for breakfast I am starved a few hours later. Eggs, however, keep me going until lunch.

4. I've tried the Atkins diet, lost weight fast, but eventually felt ill even thinking about so much protein and fat (I think I overdid the butter, bacon, and sour cream!). In general, though, a moderate low carb diet really makes me feel wonderful. The little bulge (ok, muffin top) in my tummy goes away very quickly and I have lots of energy. However, something like winter in Minnesota always pulls my back from my good intention to the carb cravings. . .so I just can't seem to sustain it.

5. I wish I like veggies more. . .I really do try to get them in but it is a struggle
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