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Old 01-25-2018, 02:33 PM   #21
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I am taller than Walt34 and weigh less than Walt34. I've weighed myself almost every day for the past 3 years. I weigh myself in the morning before eating breakfast. At the present time I weigh about 5 pounds more than my lowest weight in the past 3 years.

I have a pretty good idea of what causes me to gain weight and what causes me to lose weight. If I want to have the lowest weight, then I have to weigh myself after sitting down on the toilet and making sure everything possible is out. That means eating more fiber by about lunchtime the day before. I also don't want excess water weight, so that means very low sodium for the previous two days. It is also helpful to bike ride the day before on a hot day and sweat a lot. One can drink water, but don't overdo it.

I can weigh myself just before going to bed. I know that just by sleeping overnight, then defecating and urinating in the morning that I will lose 1 to 2 lbs.

An evening meal at my favorite TexMex place with all the chips and salsa that I can eat plus a couple of margaritas will cause me to weigh 3 to 5 lbs more the next morning. The weight will come off (or through) over the next few days.

So your Resting Metabolic Rate may be efficient, but you can still starve yourself and lose weight. Just don't eat that TexMex (or BBQ) meal after losing weight.
My experience as well. When I was reducing my weight I ate very little processed or restaurant food(0) for months and weighed obsessively.

My weight would change by 5 pounds every day. Morning to night 5 pounds, gone the next day. That's a 3% swing daily. Give me a trip to my favorite Mexican place for a normal size meal with 1 margarita and it's several days of a couple extra pounds. Given 3500 calories per pound I don't think one meal is 7000 calories! I certainly don't create a 7000 calorie defeceit over the next couple of days when it disappears.
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Old 01-25-2018, 02:52 PM   #22
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My experience as well. When I was reducing my weight I ate very little processed or restaurant food(0) for months and weighed obsessively.

My weight would change by 5 pounds every day. Morning to night 5 pounds, gone the next day. That's a 3% swing daily. Give me a trip to my favorite Mexican place for a normal size meal with 1 margarita and it's several days of a couple extra pounds. Given 3500 calories per pound I don't think one meal is 7000 calories! I certainly don't create a 7000 calorie defeceit over the next couple of days when it disappears.
Could that be water retention from what is probably much saltier food than you normally eat?

I seem to experience a similar thing. We may not notice how salty the food is, as we start with chips and salsa. And I almost always notice the leftovers to be quite salty - but it's the same food.

Salted rim on the margarita? It adds up.

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Old 01-25-2018, 03:15 PM   #23
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Could that be water retention from what is probably much saltier food than you normally eat?

I seem to experience a similar thing. We may not notice how salty the food is, as we start with chips and salsa. And I almost always notice the leftovers to be quite salty - but it's the same food.

Salted rim on the margarita? It adds up.

-ERD50
Probably, which is kinda the point. Many factors go into weight and weight loss. Most of us don't control our diet that well to notice. I felt during that time I was a great lab rat. We eat out several times weekly now, I'm not confident in my ability to track back subtle changes like I did. However my new young doc says my weight is ideal so I'm not worried.


Along the same lines. On the MFB boards there was always discussion on low-carb regarding initial weight loss("the whoosh") sometimes was just glycogen stores being depleted. I never ate as low of carb as these folks were doing, many were in ketosis for medical conditions.
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Old 01-25-2018, 03:46 PM   #24
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Were they saying you should eat 2000/day plus any specific exercise or was the 2000/day taking into account exercise?

Please report back, especially if you double your daily intake and maintain that for a decent period of time.

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A few weeks ago DW and I both began a weight-loss program at the gym (they actually call it The Wellness Center) in an effort to lose "that last few pounds" that bugs most people. Both of us would like to lose at least five, and I'd prefer to lose ten, but I'll settle for five. BTW, I'm male, 5'9" and 155 lbs. I have a light build. To start, they put us both (separately of course) on a machine that calculates, via measuring the oxygen consumed at rest, what one's ideal calorie intake should be in order to lose weight, but not too fast, which most people know is not a good thing.

We've also been keeping food logs, logging everything consumed and the respective calorie content, except water since that has no calories.

According to their machine I have a high metabolic rate, which was no surprise since I've been that way all my life and until the last five or so years, never gave calorie consumption much thought. If I wanted to lose a few pounds I just ate less, or more low-calorie foods, and that worked. Until now.

It turns out you can take that too far and make it harder to lose weight, which is apparently what I was doing. According to their calculations I should be consuming 2,000 calories a day and that would result in a slow but steady weight loss. The trouble is, going by my food logs, on most days I'm consuming less than half that. This being winter doesn't help since I hate cold weather and that cuts way down on my outdoor activity.

"So how come I don't look emaciated?" I ask. It turns out that if you don't eat enough your body goes into "starvation mode" and hangs on dearly to every calorie, not letting any go until it absolutely has to. Here's the link to the article she sent:

https://www.everydayhealth.com/weigh...etabolism.aspx

I read a few more articles on the topic and it appears that paradoxically I may have to actually gain a few pounds in order to convince my body that I'm not actually in any danger of starving.

But apparently I'm eating enough that I don't show any outright symptoms, such as brittle hair, irritability, dizziness, and some others I read about. I eat until I'm full too, I'm not hungry all the time.

Hopefully, I ask "So I can go down to King's New York Pizza and get a couple of gluten-free pizzas and resolve this, right?" Well, no. Bummer.

Next stop is an appointment with a dietician.
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Old 01-25-2018, 03:51 PM   #25
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>> many of the calories of nuts that you eat go right through you.

I doubt that. Nuts are loaded with fat and fat is very digestible. If I eat too many, I will eventual gain belly fat. Portion control is key.
Yes, portion control is key, but also watch this video about some research on eating nuts. It is well worth 10 minutes of your time.



I don't worry about eating nuts anymore and often finish off a meal with a handful of nuts.
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Old 01-25-2018, 04:09 PM   #26
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Were they saying you should eat 2000/day plus any specific exercise or was the 2000/day taking into account exercise?
That's with the exercise routine I'm doing now. It runs for about an hour and twenty minutes including rest breaks every other day.

For example today I ate a salad for breakfast, with some additions of dressing and grated cheddar cheese it came to maybe 270 calories at best. We were out much of the middle of the day so late afternoon I heated up a can of chili, that's shown as 540 calories, later I ate some celery and carrots with dip, maybe 100 calories, and I'm full! There' a chicken roasting in the oven and when that's done I'll probably eat 100-200 calories worth of that if I can. I'm heating some tea that I'll put a teaspoon of honey in, that's ~30 calories. So that totals ~1,090 calories. And today is a "heavy" day because of the can of chili, not something I normally eat.

Tomorrow I'll make the appointment with the dietician, couldn't reach her today.
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Old 01-25-2018, 06:08 PM   #27
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The gym I go to is in the last two weeks of a 90 day nutrition challenge. We decided to use counting Macros as our method this time around. So this means using a kitchen scale to weigh grams of food so you can have accurate counts of your protein grams, carb grams, and fat grams. Several members had purchased a personalized template from Renaissance Periodization and the rest of us used that methodology from their book to come up with our own specific bodyweight prescription.

When you're in a caloric deficit, the most important macro is protein. The template expected you to get 20-40 grams of protein (depending on your bodyweight) at each meal plus a post workout shake and a bedtime casein whey drink. This ensures that your body never goes more than 3 hrs without a protein source ensuring that it will not default to the easiest (whilst in a caloric deficit) energy source: burning your muscles for energy. For most members this was the hardest task, to eat enough protein every day.

You stay on your baseline macros until you stop losing at least 1/2 pound a week. Then they cut out half your carbs, leaving you with most of your carbs timed pre and post workout (for their purposes, all vegetable carbs are free and you are to eat 2-3 cups of veggies at each meal and snack). When you stop losing on that, then they cut out your added fat (for their purposes, fat in lean meat and fish is free and doesn't count) and leave you with only fat before bed so you still sleep well.

Our gym owner lost 15 lbs. in 6 weeks of this plan. I lost 7, then took off 3 weeks for holidays, then have lost another 2, so 9 in 8 weeks so far. I don't cook much and have never weighed food before, but I'm pretty sure the biggest difference was getting so much protein and veggiesn in, that makes it easy to eat less of the other macros.

Then, when your body is ready for a rest from cutting, you add back slowly so your body doesn't overreact and then your figure your new baseline macros at your lower weight.
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Old 01-25-2018, 09:36 PM   #28
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This has been discussed over at MFP many times. Most believe there's no scientific basis for starvation mode. The standard line there is your not weighing your food and logging it properly( do you weigh and log every bit of food? It's tough).

After logging 6,000 meals for DW and I, I'll say it's not easy. Especially after reaching your goals. The less you weigh the harder it becomes.
Does MFP tell you how many meals you log? What about snacks? Does it count that as meals.

I haven't missed a day of logging on MFP in over 4 years. I am on Day 1631 right now. Once you do it awhile it is pretty easy to log. It takes me less than 5 minutes a day. Actually less than 2 on the average day. It just part of my routine. I don't think I will ever quit doing it even though I am at normal weight now.

As for starvation mode - no I don't believe it isn't. Metabolic adaptation exists. As you lose weight, you do burn fewer calories also as you now weigh less.

My favorite article on Starvation Mode (that is, the myth of Starvation Mode)

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/starvation-mode/
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Old 01-25-2018, 10:56 PM   #29
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Does MFP tell you how many meals you log? What about snacks? Does it count that as meals.

I haven't missed a day of logging on MFP in over 4 years. I am on Day 1631 right now. Once you do it awhile it is pretty easy to log. It takes me less than 5 minutes a day. Actually less than 2 on the average day. It just part of my routine. I don't think I will ever quit doing it even though I am at normal weight now.
You know how MFP works. Why ask me? My experience is the amount of time required to log depends on what and how you eat. As far as my 6000 meal entries.

I've logged 1000 days for two people at 3 meals daily equals 6000 meals. That doesn't include the 0-N daily snacks for both of us. DW logs some of her snacks but not all. Of course there's all the manual exercise entries. During this time of year we spend more time weight lifting and on cardio equipment indoors. I don't have a way to automatically log those activities like hiking or snowshoeing.
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Old 01-26-2018, 02:51 AM   #30
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Previously, I had a year where my weight suddenly jumped more than it had in the previous 15 years. So, I went the simple calorie restriction route for a year. Went from 210-160. Usually I ate around 1200-1300/calories a day and I'm 6'2, so it got somewhat near a starvation diet. There were times when my weight would not move for 1-2 weeks, but then I'd suddenly drop 2-3 lbs in a couple days, so I think it was just a matter of the body organizing what to remove next.

The fun part of it was watching fat disappear from one focused area of the body to the next, starting from the face, upper arms, sides of the stomach, and finally the thighs. The down-sides were obviously anemia, with my blood pressure on the lower end of normal, and the largest side effect was some slight hair loss, which recovered after a year of normal eating. My work efficiency probably dropped a little bit too.

On the topic of nuts, I definitely did make eating almonds a regular part of my eating habits during that period, along with raisins. They were both filling, but low calorie, and even when on a low calorie diet, the almonds would nuts did not digest quite completely.
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Old 01-26-2018, 06:50 AM   #31
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It's been almost two years since I had to copy this link to the forums! I guess that's good...

But serously, even though this article uses a lot of hyperbole and bombastic statements, it's just true. It deals with estimations, reporting, and starvation mode. Read it carefully, follow the links and read those too. All will be answered.

Why Am I Not Losing Weight: 11 Reasons You're Failing To Lose Fat
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Old 01-26-2018, 07:40 AM   #32
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It's been almost two years since I had to copy this link to the forums! I guess that's good...

But serously, even though this article uses a lot of hyperbole and bombastic statements, it's just true. It deals with estimations, reporting, and starvation mode. Read it carefully, follow the links and read those too. All will be answered.

Why Am I Not Losing Weight: 11 Reasons You're Failing To Lose Fat
Good link. A few points that really stood out for me- first was portion control. I now weigh more foods and that makes a big difference. I also calculate the macros of boxed/canned foods by figuring out the content of the entire package and then figuring out what portion (50%, 100%) I'm going to eat. Most "serving sizes" are BS.

Second- no "free calories". When I added a 4-lb. container of grapes to my weekly Costco shopping list (they're delicious frozen), I started gaining weight. Surprise, surprise. I'm more relaxed about non-starchy vegetables.

Finally- exercise doesn't make up for overeating unless you're an Olympic athlete. I burn about 1,200 calories on the occasional 35-mile charity bike ride. Very easy to eat more than that in a Cheesecake Factory dinner. Even my daily workout, which burns about 700 calories, allows for only the occasional dietary "sin".

A friend lost a lot of weight after her doctor told her she was pre-diabetic and needed to restrict her carb consumption. I'm sure part of it was portion control and part was cutting out the really sugary foods- I'm working on that, too.
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Old 01-26-2018, 08:03 AM   #33
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Thanks for posting^. The article (and questions/answers)are really entertaining and simple.
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Old 01-26-2018, 08:41 AM   #34
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My friends call me Nevermiss Ameal Grasshopper, so my last blood and urine labs came back all in "normal" range except I had small ketones. I racked it up to my 5 mile walk the day before and fasting 16 hours for the blood work up. So I used some test strips I had from my diabetic dog, and sometimes I come up negative, and sometimes a trace. Meanwhile my glucose is 88 and steady. We have a follow up with the doc soon.
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Old 01-26-2018, 09:06 AM   #35
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I have been tracking every calorie for the last 8 months. By looking at weight change verses calorie count I see I burn 2300 calories a day. Like clockwork if the calories are reduced the weight is reduced accordingly. I conclude that it all comes down to calories and nothing else matters.

After loosing weight I strayed from the diet and started to eat ice cream and chips and gained 8 pounds. My lipid panel went to crap. So back on the diet and lipid panel is now good.
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Old 01-26-2018, 09:28 AM   #36
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It's been almost two years since I had to copy this link to the forums! I guess that's good...

But serously, even though this article uses a lot of hyperbole and bombastic statements, it's just true. It deals with estimations, reporting, and starvation mode. Read it carefully, follow the links and read those too. All will be answered.

Why Am I Not Losing Weight: 11 Reasons You're Failing To Lose Fat
Thank you.

I found that to be true. Our best investment in weight management was a $15.00 food scale. Today it's the most used item in the kitchen. I find measuring cups are off by 20%.

I'm glad they did include number 11.

The muscle vs fat it very noticeable. When we were almost at our goal weight we started lifting weights. DW only dropped 8 more pounds, however she lost 4 sizes with those pounds.
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Old 01-26-2018, 11:51 AM   #37
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IRead it carefully, follow the links and read those too. All will be answered.

Why Am I Not Losing Weight: 11 Reasons You're Failing To Lose Fat
I think this article misses the big point. It tells us what is happening, but it does not tell us why it is happening. It's like a guy walking down the Main street of his town with a friend and he sees a HUGE number of people crowded into one restaurant, while the others are not very busy. He asks his friend "Why is that restaurant so crowded?" And the reply is "Well, more people are going into it than coming out of it." Very true. But it begs the question "Why are more people going in than out?".

Perhaps this restaurant has a world famous chef instead of the hash-slingers who cook at the other places. Perhaps they are celebrating their 20th anniversary and offering meals at the same prices as 20 years ago. Perhaps, it recently mailed out thousands of 2 for 1 coupons that expire tomorrow. We don't know why, just the what

Our question should be "Why are people eating more calories than they need to eat?"

There are many answers, and one that many people will jump on is that the person lacks the will power and/or desire to consume less food. No doubt that is true for some. But, I believe they are a small minority. There are other reasons.....

There are, of course, medical issues, both physiological and psychological that may be causing problems.

Then there is the food we eat. We don't eat calories in a vacuum. We eat them as part of the food we consume. And different foods effect our bodies differently. Our bodies are complex chemical factories, not simple steam engines.

Nobody would argue that eating highly processed and/or sugary foods like cake, cookies, sugar bomb cereals, white bread, pretzels, chips and such is the same as eating veggies, eggs, fish, meat, and whole grains.

My argument is that for many people (not all since we are all different) the sugary, processed junk triggers responses in the body that store to many calories as fat, thus causing us to eat more in order to get the available energy the body needs. Will power cannot hold up under the constant demands of the body for more food. Especially when there is plenty of food all over the place. (Usually, the kind of food that got us in this mess in the first place.) The meat, eggs, fish, veggies group fills us up, meets our energy needs and keeps us satisfied so we do not need to consume more food to get the energy we need. Most importantly it does not cause the body to store calories needed now as fat and keep them there.

Granted an over simplification of a complicated physiological process, but I'm just a layman.

We really need to look at the Why, not just the What.

My 2. Take what you wish and leave the rest.
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Old 01-26-2018, 11:56 AM   #38
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^^+1

That is also my personal experience and what I see in the published studies relating to diet.

Edit to add: I attached a paper with my detailed thoughts at this thread at post #5.
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Old 01-26-2018, 02:34 PM   #39
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That is also my personal experience and what I see in the published studies relating to diet.

Edit to add: I attached a paper with my detailed thoughts at this thread at post #5.
Good point: It is a personal experience. Human bodies are complex and what works great for you and me may not be helpful to somebody else. And visa-versa.

One thing that really bothers me about the article is that is beats people over the head with the "It worked for me, and if it didn't work for you, then you must not have done it right, because you are ignorant, stupid or defective in some way" belief system . Alas this belief is all to common in the areas of health, nutrition, exercise, etc.

If CICO works somebody, great! If being a vegetarian works for others, great! If low-carb works for me and you, fantastic. If eating three ice cream sundaes each day works for the guy next door - I am in sanely jealous.
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Old 01-26-2018, 02:50 PM   #40
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If eating three ice cream sundaes each day works for the guy next door - I am in sanely jealous.
The hardest part about all this is that there was a time in my life when I was that guy. And now I'm not.
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