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Old 06-01-2016, 03:52 PM   #121
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I'm sure the airlines have run the numbers but one has to wonder if they have considered how many customers they've lost and will lose because of the lousy service.
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Most people have not flown over 2 million miles like I have (1 million + on one airline) since 1980. The average traveler does not know what good service used to be like. I'm sure the airlines know this and factor that thinking into their business plans.

Just look at the massive amount of extra fees that they started charging for all kinds of goodies (free checked bags, food, drinks, etc) with no regard for customers' complaints. Heck, they moved the seat size width down to 17" to squeeze three across and then added a few 20" wide seats and started charging extra ($50+) for those "upgraded" seats. Joke!

Once you fly an airline in coach like Lufthansa you will know the difference, but many people don't fly overseas.
+1

In addition, prices have declined substantially. Air travel now is more like bus travel of the past, much more focused on high volume low cost. The supporting infrastructure has not kept pace, and the burden of airport security has been added. Passengers suffer the brunt of this, but so do employees - airports and airlines are no longer highly desirable places to work.
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Old 06-01-2016, 04:23 PM   #122
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+1

In addition, prices have declined substantially. Air travel now is more like bus travel of the past, much more focused on high volume low cost. The supporting infrastructure has not kept pace, and the burden of airport security has been added. Passengers suffer the brunt of this, but so do employees - airports and airlines are no longer highly desirable places to work.
I suppose, but I (wistfully) remember when it was a lot easier. I didn't fly commercial that much but back in the '70's it was "get there 30-45 minutes before boarding" and you were good to go. No security hassle to speak of.

Bring back that level of ease and we'd be spending a lot of money on airline travel. Well, some anyway. As it is they won't get any.
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Old 06-01-2016, 04:38 PM   #123
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I suppose, but I (wistfully) remember when it was a lot easier. I didn't fly commercial that much but back in the '70's it was "get there 30-45 minutes before boarding" and you were good to go. No security hassle to speak of.

Bring back that level of ease and we'd be spending a lot of money on airline travel. Well, some anyway. As it is they won't get any.
I think there is a middle ground with customer service from the airlines. Maybe like feed the passengers, and provide free baggage checking? That would cure a lot of ills. But, airlines are run by bean counters these days, so the odds of anyone giving back to the customer are low.
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Old 06-01-2016, 04:40 PM   #124
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Ah, here it is, kcowan found the airline that knows how to do it right!

Retirees Thrive Regardless of Nest Egg

Here's the link he refers to in his post:

Flight attendant Jennie Jordan responds to Jennifer Aniston's Emirates advert | Daily Mail Online
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Old 06-01-2016, 04:42 PM   #125
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+1

In addition, prices have declined substantially. Air travel now is more like bus travel of the past, much more focused on high volume low cost. The supporting infrastructure has not kept pace, and the burden of airport security has been added. Passengers suffer the brunt of this, but so do employees - airports and airlines are no longer highly desirable places to work.
Yes, and the prices have remained low over the 16 years I have retired. I don't mind adding the fees for upgraded seats or luggage - the prices are still cheaper adjusted for inflation.

I don't like how row pitch keep shrinking, but I don't mind paying extra for a better seat legroom and premier boarding. Most people won't pay the extra - and that's fine with me because chances are I'll have an empty seat next to me.
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Old 06-01-2016, 04:58 PM   #126
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I don't like how row pitch keep shrinking, but I don't mind paying extra for a better seat legroom and premier boarding. Most people won't pay the extra - and that's fine with me because chances are I'll have an empty seat next to me.
Last United flight I was on, the Premier seat I paid extra for was better than the coach regular one. What irked me is that the airline gave away the remaining empty Premier seats to folks who had been overbooked by United on the flight. Nice way to treat us paying customers.
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Old 06-01-2016, 05:06 PM   #127
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How come you'll move to accommodate "families," but scorn the person traveling alone?

I will be the "poor person in the middle" in coach next week. I will probably be squeezed between two larger people traveling together. If they are nice, it won't be an issue, but if they are selfish, I plan to intrude on everything they do "over" me. I shall join in their conversation and take sips from their drinks! And who knows what else I will think of. When it comes to being ignored, or treated like "the poor person," I can be quite inventive

So there!

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When not alone my wife sits on the aisle and I sit on the window. The poor person who sits in the middle always asks if we want to switch with him/her. My wife is 5'6" 120 and she hates sitting next to me on the plane (go figure) so we never move when we are traveling together.

She's also good at passing my drinks across the poor middle seat person.
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Old 06-01-2016, 05:11 PM   #128
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How come you'll move to accommodate "families," but scorn the person traveling alone?

I will be the "poor person in the middle" in coach next week. I will probably be squeezed between two larger people traveling together. If they are nice, it won't be an issue, but if they are selfish, I plan to intrude on everything they do "over" me. I shall join in their conversation and take sips from their drinks! And who knows what else I will think of. When it comes to being ignored, or treated like "the poor person," I can be quite inventive

So there!
I usually buy the middle person drinks. We're actually very polite. DW does most of the talking. Heck, I may even lower the armrest....

Don't worry about food being passed over - I don't eat that much. I'm just big. Been that way my whole life. I do like the gin and juice though.
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Old 06-01-2016, 07:10 PM   #129
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I know the statistics say more people are fat (and fatter) than 20 years ago, but my teenage memories from the 1970's are that pretty much everyone's parents, except mine, looked rather fat to me. The men all had prominent bellies, and the women always had fleshy hips and rears. I remember being shocked by the sight of a beautiful young neighbor woman, who was probably around 30, when she appeared in a bathing suit. She was young and beautiful down to her waist. Lower down, she was so heavy and flabby that her limbs looked like plastic bags of cottage cheese. I had no idea that could happen to someone so young, plus I couldn't figure out how she still had a small waistline. Heredity, of course.

It's true that there were not many overweight kids in my high school classes, but in college a number of fellow students were starting to get heavy. I figured it started when they acquired cars, and stopped walking or riding bikes. I went to college in south Florida, where everyone who wasn't in my age group seemingly was 60+, and absolutely all those older people looked, to me, like Fisher-Price people: no waists, hips and chests the same width. And when I started working, I was one of a cohort of young women, early 20's in age, who went into the same trainee program. All the others were overweight, and several had to be 200 pounds.

So my memory is that there was quite a lot of fatness, 40 years ago. I decided it was normal (even though I wanted to avoid it myself). That is why I have been slightly bemused at the fuss that's been made over people's weight in recent years.
Where were you living, you must be in denial. I lived in Riverside Ca from 15-19 in the 70's. They were some but nothing like what started happening in the late 80's. That's also when the Navy started the so called fat boy program.
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Old 06-01-2016, 08:13 PM   #130
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I suppose, but I (wistfully) remember when it was a lot easier. I didn't fly commercial that much but back in the '70's it was "get there 30-45 minutes before boarding" and you were good to go. No security hassle to speak of.

Bring back that level of ease and we'd be spending a lot of money on airline travel. Well, some anyway. As it is they won't get any.
30-45 minutes? Whys so early? I recollect driving up to the terminal entrance in rental car, getting out, tossing keys at rental counter attendant, running to gate & getting on, no boarding passes, just ticket. Ten minutes was plenty of time.

Because routes were assigned by FAA, some flights were near empty. Recall a Saturday SMF-ORD flight with more attendants than passengers.
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:40 AM   #131
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Ronnie, thank you for your honest post. I'm fat, too, and have had those awkward times on airplanes, especially when I've traveled with a good friend who is heavier than I am.

I have had a fairly sunny disposition for most of my life, but as midlife hit, I began suffering with some debilitating depression, for the first time, and that has contributed to my lack of motivation to take care of myself, hence a substantial weight gain in the past several years. I'm trying to solve that now, and hope that I will be able to return to a healthier weight. It's hard, and if you haven't walked a mile in the shoes of someone else, you have no idea how hard. Empathy is pretty damn hard to come by these days.

I hope that you will consider if depression or other such issues might be a part of your current habits, as I believe they are mine. And best wishes in battling the asshats of the world! Again, thanks for your honest and forthright post.
I am probably depressed/stressed and definitely an emotional eater....need to figure out a better coping mechanism other than eating. Rubber band to the wrist here I come.

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Yep, that's exactly what he was. awesome post Ronnie and let me just say one thing.

PEOPLE CARE about you!! I'm in no way a medical professional but it sounds like you maybe struggling also with a little depression.

I'm not going to launch into advice but let me just say, if you saw my post about my friend Jo,you'll understand why I want you to take this message to heart. your death would be devastating!! Please believe that. I miss Jo so much, my kids miss her, her kids darn near lost their minds this past mother's day. The worst is when I see something funny during a normal day and I immediately think, "gotta call Jo" and then realize I can't. It is literally like someone punches me in the gut.
So my prayer for you today is that you simply "feel" the love around you.

young, old, fat, skinny, retired or not. you are most definitely needed
Thanks for the kind words.

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Ronnie -- given your misgivings about the effects of your eating on your family, and your statement that you "live a sad life", please consider making a change today. Here is a safe, effective program you can use if you just decide to do so: Low Carb for Beginners
Thanks, I will check it out. After many tried and failed diets (I did succeed in High School to get to a "I've got big bones" size of 200 lbs at 6') I am a firm believer in cutting down and not going cold turkey, that seemed to lead to rebound binges.

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I have to disagree about the "asshat' comment, in what was a very heartfelt post the gentlemen said I can usually get by if I slide into my wife and use part of her seat. Well he can't always know that's going to happen, in some situations they might not be seated together. According to airline rules, he should buy a second seat. What was the guy next to him supposed to do and how does he know the seatmate didn't feel constrained in his seat.
Well I very rarely fly, only if that is the only way. I had always envisioned in retirement for flying instances it would be first class. Besides my annual managers meeting the above flight was the only one in the prior 10 years. My wife and I were able to sit next to each other (we booked it that way) and I was in my seat and hers, the asshat in question was able to have his arm rest down and had plenty of room to do all of his activities and move a round in his seat (he weighed a buck fifty). I wouldn't begrudge him if I had encroached on his seat or was knocking hips and legs due to my fat ass but I wasn't. In fact I had sore muscles from keeping my body away from his side of the chair to not bother him. I would say he had all the room he would've gotten if a regular sized person was sitting there. Maybe I had B.O. too?


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Awesome, honest post from someone who lives with the thread topic.

The relative who hip-checked me at the funeral? She was the most militant fat person I have ever met. According to her, doctors should just treat her and stop lecturing her about weight, because her weight was her business. (Well, it is, except when a doctor makes it his or her business). She controlled her Type II diabetes, high cholesterol, blood pressure with her "meds." She ate whatever she wanted, refused to exercise, and was always talking about how fat women are more beautiful and sexy than thin ones; all they need is to be confident and wear the right clothes. Well, she had a point about that, right up until she didn't. She is now in her 60's.

What happened next is that her heart, which she'd always thought was somehow immune, developed a problem that could kill or permanently disable her. When she really, truly came to fear that she might die or become seriously disabled, she started taking doctors seriously. She has been on a very smart diet (diet-meal deliveries, plus tons of fresh vegetables, and no added sugar or sugary foods) since New Year's, has lost a quarter of her body weight, is looking like a new person and truly seems serious about never going back to her unhealthy habits.

I am careful never to tell someone "If so-and-so can do it, you can do it too" because we are none of us alike. I only tell this story because there are certain similarities between my relative's story and the one you have told us. You "don't care," but maybe that only means you aren't scared enough - yet. I wish you and your family the best.
I kinda think that was the catalyst I was looking for to push me over the edge and it hadn't come yet. But little things are adding up and I would hate to get the one big thing that I couldn't turn around with proper diet and exercise.

After spilling my guts last night and thinking about it today during my 10 hour shift at work, I realized that I need to make a change, why bother saving for early retirement if I/We won't live long enough to enjoy it. Heck at this rate I won't have to worry if I need to take SS at 62, 67, or 70 cause I won't be there to take it. I want to be able to walk and hike during my retirement years, I want to be able to take flights to London, Paris, every where I want to see. I want to be able to complain about the fat guy sitting next to me on a long flight (ha not really).

It's like the fat guy wearing the shirt that says, "I may be fat but you're ugly and I can lose weight." I am going to make a change.
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:05 AM   #132
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Thanks for the psychoanalysis If you'll re-read my post, you will see where I was living. I described my observations in specific detail and did not claim that they should be everyone else's observations; just mine.

I remember the military bouncing out the overweight members in the late 1980's. I lost a work friend, a very good Airman who simply could not make weight. It tends to confirm that fatness was already rife amongst younger people *more* than 20 years ago.

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Where were you living, you must be in denial. I lived in Riverside Ca from 15-19 in the 70's. They were some but nothing like what started happening in the late 80's. That's also when the Navy started the so called fat boy program.
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:28 AM   #133
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Actually, this thread is specifically about why people care whether other people are fat. If people don't care, they can post about that, too.

I'm not really interested in why people get fat. As you said, there are lots of threads about that.
Why do I "care"? Not sure. Occasionally I am inconvenienced in a small way by heavy people, like the airplane deal, but I am pretty tolerant about minor inconveniences. Am I less tolerant in this case because I judge harshly heavy people? Maybe. But why? Not sure.

A part of me sees a waste of "what could be". I know that obese people suffer inconveniences constantly due to their bulk, and due to social factors. Physically, I know there are wonderful things they are missing out on because it is making them ill, shortening their life span, and depriving them of the simple joys of being fit and active.
It bothers me that while they could be making better decisions, there are a lot of reasons why that is difficult, some of which have to do with education, culture, the way food is prepared and sold, and economic factors.
From watching family members struggle with this, I have come to the conclusion that whatever high they get from eating or drinking whatever is making them heavy is as much of an addiction as a cigarette, a bottle of booze, or an oxycodone.

Yet we've all known people who have overcome this addiction, as well as other addictions. So while I can care with empathy, I also cannot completely absolve the individual of their personal responsibility to themselves. I don't think that's overly judgmental. Maybe it is, I don't know, but I do know that ultimately, nobody can take control of their lives but the individuals themselves.

Would it be more accurate to ask "why are people so judgmental towards fat people"?
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:56 AM   #134
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Ronnieboy, please seek professional help before you attempt to make changes,your comment I was looking to be pushed over the edge by one big thing is something to think about.

You are miserable about your weight, can't be active, and don't have an intimate life with your spouse and have looming health issues. Somehow, you call these "little things" they are most definitely "big things". Eating low carb isn't going to get you all the way healthy look for some help, for your own sake. And Good Luck
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:07 AM   #135
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Would it be more accurate to ask "why are people so judgmental towards fat people"?
because they think we have a huge character flaw - I've been "fat" my whole life, but it's genetic. normal bp, pulse, etc. Heck I can walk 18 holes and carry my clubs on a hilly course.

When I was 33 I lost 50 pounds by just not eating bread, got down to 250. Gained a little back in the last 20 years but my playing weight in HS/college was 240. Size 52 jacket 42 pants, go figure.

BMI has to be the biggest joke regarding measuring obesity. I w*rk with a guy that weighs 165 but has about 8% body fat and he's considered overweight.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:17 AM   #136
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but it's genetic. normal bp, pulse, etc.
Genetics is a big factor for many people, in a variety of ways......even back when I was in my 30s, running 70 miles a week, no extra weight, my BP was borderline high and my pulse rate was faster than would otherwise be expected.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:24 AM   #137
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because they think we have a huge character flaw - I've been "fat" my whole life, but it's genetic. normal bp, pulse, etc. Heck I can walk 18 holes and carry my clubs on a hilly course.

When I was 33 I lost 50 pounds by just not eating bread, got down to 250. Gained a little back in the last 20 years but my playing weight in HS/college was 240. Size 52 jacket 42 pants, go figure.

BMI has to be the biggest joke regarding measuring obesity. I w*rk with a guy that weighs 165 but has about 8% body fat and he's considered overweight.
Back to the airplane seat, with those measurements I see why your own wife doesn't want to sit next to you on the plane..so if your wife doesn't want to why should someone else have to? If I got stuck in the middle between you 2 I'd know exactly what happened. IMO you should buy the middle seat...if your own spouse feels it's not good enough to use.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:25 AM   #138
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In my earlier days 20's and early 30's, I could get by with a fast food diet (McD's one day, the BK, the next and top that off with Wendy's the next) and not put on any weight at all. Once I hit 40, the battle of the bulge started. I'm not fat, but am about 35lbs heavier than my college weight. I remember seeing a former co-w*rker who I hadn't seen in about 15 years and he said "You look well, put on some weight". I said "Thanks" but actually felt like crap with the extra weight.

Now, a treadmill, bike riding and no more fast food diets are my friend .
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:57 AM   #139
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Back to the airplane seat, with those measurements I see why your own wife doesn't want to sit next to you on the plane..so if your wife doesn't want to why should someone else have to? If I got stuck in the middle between you 2 I'd know exactly what happened. IMO you should buy the middle seat...if your own spouse feels it's not good enough to use.
well the poor person, let's call them Malcolm....should have bought his/her ticket earlier and got an aisle or window seat, not my problem
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:06 AM   #140
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Well, I wanted to go a little farther, and ask why anyone would even care enough about other people's weight to be judgmental toward them. I mean, it's their weight, health issue, whatever.

I pre-supposed that in order to be judgmental toward others, people have to perceive some threat, real or imaginary, from those others. Or else, the thing that's being judged, is seen to be very uncommon and strange, and thus makes people uneasy. What harm or threat to others, could possibly come from the extremely common phenomenon of fat people?

The responses, yours included, have been extremely interesting.

Amethyst

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Would it be more accurate to ask "why are people so judgmental towards fat people"?
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