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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 08:23 AM   #61
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Hey, MKLD:

I think we all value your suggestions on how to find coverage, technical aspects of policy provisions, etc. But on the subject of healthcare reform, how individuals are responsibble for getting cancer, why we should all just deal with a completely unfettered free healthcare market, etc., I suspect I am not alone in wishing you would just SHUT THE FCUK UP!






Oh yeah:
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 09:03 AM   #62
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

I never said people are responsible for getting cancer or any other illness that they get. Granted, I do believe some lifestyle choices lead to illness that could be prevented. My opinion is that a universal system will ultimately lead to lower quality of care for a much higher cost, alienating a lot more people than the current system does. I never said there wasn't room for improvement. I just think many people are very misguided in their thoughts that universalizing will be the utopian fix for our troubles, and I prefer a system that works the best for the most amount of people vs. a system that fails more people than it helps.

The Canadian system is a good model for comparison, because many who are in favor of single-payor are also NOT in favor of two-tiered systems where there is any inkling of "inequality". The Canadian system tried to eliminate inequality, and look where they are today. The sickest individuals cannot get the care they need and many end up crossing the border looking for better, quicker care from the USA. Like it or not, we will end up in the same situation 10-20 yrs down the road. Universalization is inevitable. As soon as Clinton is elected (and she will be), changes will be made quickly. All I can say is that only time will tell. We won't know for 10 or 20 years what the consequences will be, but once it happens, it will too late to fix and even though the older people (people who are older right now) might never be affected, our children will have a mess on their hands.
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 09:31 AM   #63
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
The Canadian system is a good model for comparison, because many who are in favor of single-payor are also NOT in favor of two-tiered systems where there is any inkling of "inequality".
There always will be 2 tier systems like UK, etc. Currently we people leaving the US
for places like Thailand to get care because of the cost. There is no perfect solution,
but having some basic level of medical care seems necessary.

If I were president:
I would legalized assisted suicides, we talk about being humane to our pets because
they're in pain, but for humans, nope. It's just a way for the medical establishment to
suck the last dime from your pocket.

I would like to see a breakdown of where the money goes, ie how much for
insurance, etc. I really like to see how much mal-practice insurance is costing us?

Also I would eliminate advertising for prescription drugs, makes no sense to me.
Tom
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 11:31 AM   #64
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by teejayevans
There always will be 2 tier systems like UK, etc. Currently we people leaving the US
for places like Thailand to get care because of the cost. There is no perfect solution,
but having some basic level of medical care seems necessary.
You are right....no perfect solution. People may leave to get care from Thailand because of cost, and that is fine, as long as Thailand can provide those services. We also see a lot of people leaving their countries for care in the USA because they don't have access to the technology that we do, and they are willing to pay for it! Once the USA system goes to the same as everyone else's people won't have those choices anymore...The whole world will be in the same boat....so if you want the best, forget it, because there won't be anyplace to go for the best, because that choice will be gone, even if you are willing to pay more for it.

Anyway, maybe in 10 or 20 years it won't matter because people won't have any concept of what they are missing out on! (unless of course, they look back into history and find that in the "old days" people never had to wait 10 or 20 weeks for high tech services.
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 11:34 AM   #65
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Hey, MKLD:

I think we all value your suggestions on how to find coverage, technical aspects of policy provisions, etc. But on the subject of healthcare reform, how individuals are responsibble for getting cancer, why we should all just deal with a completely unfettered free healthcare market, etc., I suspect I am not alone in wishing you would just SHUT THE **** UP!
You are not alone .....
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 11:39 AM   #66
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

If you've been knee-deep in sh*t sometimes you forget you stink...and then try to convince others it's nice in there!

it ain't so bad...come on in!
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 12:32 PM   #67
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Wait times in Canada...A detailed analysis...

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/...s/wyt2006.pdf#
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 12:35 PM   #68
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Wait times in Canada...A detailed analysis...

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/...s/wyt2006.pdf#
What about the price of tea in China, ***?

Edit: removed profanity.
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 12:38 PM   #69
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

The Fraser Institute
"Our vision is a free and prosperous world where individuals benefit
from greater choice, competitive markets, and personal responsibility.
Our mission is to measure, study, and communicate the impact of
competitive markets and government interventions on the welfare
of individuals."
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As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 12:41 PM   #70
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
The Fraser Institute
"Our vision is a free and prosperous world where individuals benefit
from greater choice, competitive markets, and personal responsibility.
Our mission is to measure, study, and communicate the impact of
competitive markets and government interventions on the welfare
of individuals."
Make sure that you don't read the rest of the study. Sentence #1 tells all! There is nothing to be gained from learning about the actual data that was collected
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 12:41 PM   #71
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Institute

great source of unbiased info huh?
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 12:45 PM   #72
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by bright eyed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Institute

great source of unbiased info huh?
There is a lot of data that is included in the report that you can draw your own conclusions from. You don't have to accept Fraser Institutes conclusions, but at least look at the data. Oh...I forgot...that's too much to ask of this group.
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 12:51 PM   #73
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
There is a lot of data that is included in the report that you can draw your own conclusions from. You don't have to accept Fraser Institutes conclusions, but at least look at the data. Oh...I forgot...that's too much to ask of this group.
Nah, I'd rather watch Fox "News."
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 01:05 PM   #74
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Make sure that you don't read the rest of the study. Sentence #1 tells all! There is nothing to be gained from learning about the actual data that was collected
Your escalating sarcasm doesn't enhance your credibility.

Nonetheless, the political or economic agenda of an information source is fair game and, indeed, an important component for a reader to be aware of in drawing conclusions. The content of such "studies" (or the decision about which studies to cite) may be biased by the slant of the sponsoring organization. This is why I try to rely on objective, often academic research from unbiased sourced if available. This is especially true on the web, where anyone can cast a google hook out there and turn up "support" for virtually any opinion, regardless of its validity.

Similarly, I also refuse to use pharmaceutical reps as my source of information about new drugs, probably wouldn't trust any political advocacy group's own data in drawing my conclusions (liberal or conservative), and wouldn't ask a BMW dealer what the best car brand is.

Perhaps it is not "this group" (as you condescendingly refer to it) which has a closed or doctrinaire attitude on the issues.
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 01:20 PM   #75
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Your escalating sarcasm doesn't enhance your credibility.
Now c'mon, doc: you just don't want to see the "facts" here. :
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 01:28 PM   #76
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Your escalating sarcasm doesn't enhance your credibility.

Nonetheless, the political or economic agenda of an information source is fair game and, indeed, an important component for a reader to be aware of in drawing conclusions. The content of such "studies" (or the decision about which studies to cite) may be biased by the slant of the sponsoring organization. This is why I try to rely on objective, often academic research from unbiased sourced if available. This is especially true on the web, where anyone can cast a google hook out there and turn up "support" for virtually any opinion, regardless of its validity.

Similarly, I also refuse to use pharmaceutical reps as my source of information about new drugs, probably wouldn't trust any political advocacy group's own data in drawing my conclusions (liberal or conservative), and wouldn't ask a BMW dealer what the best car brand is.

Perhaps it is not "this group" (as you condescendingly refer to it) which has a closed or doctrinaire attitude on the issues.
Please post the studies you have read from "unbiased" sources. I like to read up as much as I can about this subject.. So far, I have read plenty of articles from both sides, but obviously, it is difficult to find an "unbiased" source on this subject. Most are either on one side or the other. My sarcasms is a defensive response to some of the other nasty comments on the board, which, by the way, don't seem to ever receive any kind of criticism. My conclusions have been drawn from information presented by both sides as well as personal experience.

Being in the industry, I have been subject to the effect of irresponsible legislation and have had to spend lots of time explaining away the high cost of small group health plans to my clients. Prior to 2003, Colorado had modified community rating. We were down to only three competitors when rates starting rising 25-50%/yr at every renewal. Imagine trying to explain that to your customers!

In 2003, legislators fiinally approved rating flexibility in Colorado. The unhealthier groups became subject to a maximum 10% rate factor, while the healthiest groups now get up to a 25% discount below indexed rates. This legislation brought a LOT of small groups back into the marketplace helping to allow the healthy risk to mitigate the cost of some of the bad risk. Five new competitore entered or re-entered the small group market, and rates started flatting to an average renewal increase of only about 10% as compared to 25-50%. Now, the Left is trying to reverse the legislation and go back to community rating. It will all but destroy the small group market here in Colorado in the name of equality. They want everyone's rates to be the same. And yes, everyone will have the same rates, but everyone will have the same, MUCH higher rates, as competitors begin dropping like flies. What good will that do for the unhealthy risk when small groups start dropping their benefit plans altogether because the bottom line is much too unaffordable?

Sometimes, equality hurts more people than it helps. Right now, at least the unhealthy can get guaranteed coverage through work, but if the employers drop their benefit plans, they aren't going to have any coverage at all. Tell me...how is that better?
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 01:30 PM   #77
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Were you ever a used car salesman?
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 02:08 PM   #78
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

ALso, MKLD.. please stop using ONLY Canada as an example.

Here in Italy we get prescriptions either free or with a co-payment depending on a classification system (much like an insurance company might use).

DH had some high BP / cholesterol numbers and was given Bayer asprin (BAYER only no generics!) free, Seacor (pharma grade fish oil) free, Cardura (doxazsin) free, Totalip (a statin?) free, and Moduretic (Amiloride cloridrato biidrato/idroclorotiazide) free..

The Cardura has a "retail price" marked on it of 18.92 for 30 2mg pills. The Moduretic 2.53 for 20 5mg/50mg pills. He finished the other meds and quit taking them after a couple months as his numbers went into a good range and have stayed there, so I don't have the other items on hand to give you prices. Aspirin is $ here, though.. if you don't have an Rx for it.

Of course we do pay for it via higher sales taxes, etc. But it's nice to know if I get hit by a bus someone will take care of me. Maybe I won't get Mayo-clinic-level treatment, but then few people do, even in the US. I have my doctor's cell phone and can call him anytime which is a comfort, though I would only do so in an emergency.

We can also buy private health insurance which would pay towards private clinics and private doctors should we want to do so.

It's if we come back to the US that we would have the problem of being among the "uninsurable" or practically so.. no matter what happens here. Having stupidly moved to a place where everyone is covered. Or should I have kept up my $700/month US payments just so as not to "lose my place in line"?? What a sad state of affairs.
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 02:18 PM   #79
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
ALso, MKLD.. please stop using ONLY Canada as an example.

Here in Italy we get prescriptions either free or with a co-payment depending on a classification system (much like an insurance company might use).

DH had some high BP / cholesterol numbers and was given Bayer asprin (BAYER only no generics!) free, Seacor (pharma grade fish oil) free, Cardura (doxazsin) free, Totalip (a statin?) free, and Moduretic (Amiloride cloridrato biidrato/idroclorotiazide) free..

The Cardura has a "retail price" marked on it of 18.92 for 30 2mg pills. The Moduretic 2.53 for 20 5mg/50mg pills. He finished the other meds and quit taking them after a couple months as his numbers went into a good range and have stayed there, so I don't have the other items on hand to give you prices. Aspirin is $ here, though.. if you don't have an Rx for it.

Of course we do pay for it via higher sales taxes, etc. But it's nice to know if I get hit by a bus someone will take care of me. Maybe I won't get Mayo-clinic-level treatment, but then few people do, even in the US. I have my doctor's cell phone and can call him anytime which is a comfort, though I would only do so in an emergency.

We can also buy private health insurance which would pay towards private clinics and private doctors should we want to do so.

It's if we come back to the US that we would have the problem of being among the "uninsurable" or practically so.. no matter what happens here. Having stupidly moved to a place where everyone is covered. Or should I have kept up my $700/month US payments just so as not to "lose my place in line"?? What a sad state of affairs.
Ladelfina,

I applaud you for moving to a place where you can get your health coverage for free, and have the kind of healthcare that you are personally satisfied with. Can you give me an idea of what your tax rate is in Italy? I am very curious. You did state that you do pay some in the form of taxes, but I really would like to have an actual figure to base my opinions on. Please be honest about what the average tax rate is there. It's hard to find that kind of information on the internet that is up-to-date.

Also, just curious....if someone had to have a cornea transplant, cataract surgery, spinal surgery, brain surgery, plastic surgery, or hip replacement in Italy, is there any kind of waiting time? What about the waiting time for Lasik eye surgery? How does that compare to the USA? Also, what is the access like to the latest and greatest meds such as Crestor and Lipitor for elevated cholesterol, Boniva for osteoporosis, Wellbutrin for depression, Singulair and Advair for allergies and asthma, etc...?

Lastly, can you give me an idea as to how long Italy has had universal healthcare? Has it been longer than 30 years? I really don't know and I am curious.

Oh one more thing... about how much, in US dollars, does a supplemental private plan cost in Italy?

Right now, I pay about 30% of my income in taxes (about $25,000 in taxes, USD). I would expect that to double in a universal system here. Yet, my current cost of health insurance for my family is only $3600 USD right now. and my deductible is only $5150.00 USD). My total potential OOP per year is $8750.00. That's less than half of what I would expect to pay in additional taxes in a universal system. Even if I had to pay $700.00 per month, it would still be less than what I (and a large majority of people) would pay in additional taxes. (IMO)

I noticed you stated above, "Maybe I won't get Mayo-Clinic-level treatment, but then few people do, even in the US". My whole point in earlier posts is that, at least in the USA, if you have the means to buy it, and if you want it bad enough, at least you CAN get it in the USA. In universal systems, you couldn't get it, even if you were willing to pay for it. I don't understand how a system like that is better. Preventive care is cheap, and easy to pay for on an out-of-pocket basis for most people and those who can't afford it can usually get it at local clinics on a sliding scale, so pretty much anyone who wants it can get it, but when you really want good care, when you are really, really sick and need the best, isn't it nice to at least have the ability to get it?
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state
Old 04-17-2007, 03:01 PM   #80
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Re: Why does health insurance vary state to state

Quote:
Originally Posted by mykidslovedogs
Right now, I pay about 30% of my income in taxes (about $25,000 in taxes, USD). I would expect that to double in a universal system here. Yet, my current cost of health insurance for my family is only $3600 USD right now. and my deductible is only $5150.00 USD). My total potential OOP per year is $8750.00. That's less than half of what I would expect to pay in additional taxes in a universal system. Even if I had to pay $700.00 per month, it would still be less than what I (and a large majority of people) would pay in additional taxes. (IMO)
Fabulous.

Now what is the distance between your navel and your 'taint? How much bigger would that distance be under unversal care?
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