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Old 09-07-2009, 12:03 PM   #81
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I have always been active, and always been fairly lean. But I have seen others try the same thing and it just doesn't work for them. But several years into one of the most physically strenuous regimes I was ever on since getting to middle age I changed to a low carb diet and immediately dropped 10 pounds or a little more. This was 12 years ago and on this eating plan I haven't varied more than 2 or 3 pounds up or down since then, even when my activity was severely curtailed after an auto crash. I eat all the meat and fish and green veggies I want, and am never hungry. I don't try to avoid fat, since one can only eat so much protein without puking, and you can't avoid both carbs and fat. I'm 68, past the time when men get fat if they are going to. So I'd say that I am not going to.

In Good Calories, Bad Calories Taubes describes an experiment designed expressly to see if even heavy exercise causes weight loss on average in overweight people. I just looked for the reference but can't find it. Anyway, two Finnish researchers took a group of fat people and trained them to run marathons. Not just one marathon, but several. None of them lost meaningful weight. (As I remember, some lost 3 or 4 pounds, some gained 2 or 3 pounds.)

It is clear that under certain circumstances very heavy exercise will cause weight loss. One only needs to look at military basic training to see that. If the exercise is so heavy that you have neither the time nor energy to eat enough to keep up, you lose weight. Same with football camp. No one I knew who showed up on the 100 degree football field in August failed to lose weight, at least for a while. You hurt too much and were too tired to eat enough to keep up, in spite of the coaches exhortations to eat plenty of beans and bacon and pie. Another expample is guys dong the very active jobs on a logging crew, like choker setters. They expend tremendous energy on the job, ride a log way back to HQ on the crew bus, get home late and exhausted and fall asleep in their dinner plates. Their wives may or may not be able to wake them up enough to get a little love.

Most of us just aren't ever going to voluntarily put ourselves through this kind of thing as a weight control program, not once we are past 30 anyway, or unless we are being paid several million a year to do it. It is very aversive.

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Old 09-07-2009, 12:54 PM   #82
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Both DH and I have been on a diet over the last 3 months that emphasizes lean protein and veggies. It's not truly low carb, but we are eating much less carbs and a lot more protein than we ever have before. The weight has dropped off of us. We've been exercising, but haven't really vamped the exercise up that much more. It was the diet for sure that led to the drop in weight. Hopefully we will be able to stick to it and maintain the weight loss. Vacations and holiday weekends have led to a 3# regain on my part (somehow DH has managed to lose yet another pound, despite drinking and eating with abandon last weekend).

We will continue to exercise because we enjoy it and also for the other wonderful health benefits it provides.
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Old 09-07-2009, 01:42 PM   #83
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We will continue to exercise because we enjoy it and also for the other wonderful health benefits it provides.
This is a good philosophy, SG. We do a lot of things because they're good for us, not because they help us lose weight--quit smoking, get enough sleep, take vitamins, etc. I think it's good (for me) to look at exercise in that vein.

Interesting too that gyms are moving away from "aeobics" and "cardio" and now featuring pilates and yoga and strength training and working with free weights.
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Old 09-07-2009, 02:11 PM   #84
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This is why I have a problem with these discussions. IMHO there's no single solution to weight loss. Cattusbabe lost weight through avoiding the white stuff, which I think is a good idea. RunningBum loses weight temporarily at least through intense exercise. Others use other methods. I've personally done both of the above, individually and at the same time, and haven't lost significant weight. For me it's a matter of cutting out simple carbs, most complex carbs, and fats, combined with moderate exercise. And that's an impossible formula for me to stay with. So many people say "this worked for me, it WILL work for you", and I just don't think it's that simple.

I think we humans are incredibly complex, and the scientists are looking for a Rosetta Stone that will unlock the one big secret. It may exist, but I don't think they're close to it yet. My only suggestion is to a) cast around, try various things, b) find one (or a combination) that works for you, and c) stick with it. a) is easy, b) is difficult, and c) can be damn near impossible. But if you want to lose weight and keep it off I suspect this is the only way to do it.

Of course, you can eat as healthily as current science leads you to believe, live a moderately active life, accept the shape that you get, and enjoy life while it lasts. That's what I'm shooting for at this point. Khan is my ideal in this method. She is my health hero!
I have no argument with what you posted. Each person has to find what works for them. That may mean tweaking a diet/exercise plan to work for them. Having had a weight problem since my teens better information, time and resources seem to be working this time. (That and wanting the next 50 years to be better than the last 50. )
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Old 09-07-2009, 04:26 PM   #85
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Here's an interesting quote from Arthur Schopenhauer supplied by by John Tierney in NYT that helps to show how these wrong headed ideas (that saturated fat is deadly) get adopted and grow. It's a favorite topic of mine also, as it illustrates the haplessness of public judgment, and by extension modern mass democratic processes.

Schopenhauer on Cascades

By John Tierney

The last post generated some excellent nominations for cascades, and I welcome more, as well as suggestions for stopping mistaken cascades.
To inspire you, here’s a great description of the phenomenon from the 19th-century German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer. (Hat tip: Vladimir Lojen.) Although the math of cascades wouldn’t be worked out for another century or two, Schopenhauer beautifully described both the informational cascade and the reputational cascade. Here’s the excerpt from chapter 3 of the “The Art of Controversy”:

When we come to look into the matter, so-called universal opinion is the opinion of two or three persons; and we should be persuaded of this if we could see the way in which it really arises.
We should find that it is two or three persons who, in the first instance, accepted it, or advanced and maintained it; and of whom people were so good as to believe that they had thoroughly tested it. Then a few other persons, persuaded beforehand that the first were men of the requisite capacity, also accepted the opinion. These, again, were trusted by many others, whose laziness suggested to them that it was better to believe at once, than to go through the troublesome task of testing the matter for themselves. Thus the number of these lazy and credulous adherents grew from day to day; for the opinion had no sooner obtained a fair measure of support than its further supporters attributed this to the fact that the opinion could only have obtained it by the cogency of its arguments. The remainder were then compelled to grant what was universally granted, so as not to pass for unruly persons who resisted opinions which every one accepted, or pert fellows who thought themselves cleverer than any one else.

When opinion reaches this stage, adhesion becomes a duty; and henceforward the few who are capable of forming a judgment hold their peace. Those who venture to speak are such as are entirely incapable of forming any opinions or any judgment of their own, being merely the echo of others’ opinions; and, nevertheless, they defend them with all the greater zeal and intolerance. For what they hate in people who think differently is not so much the different opinions which they profess, as the presumption of wanting to form their own judgment; a presumption of which they themselves are never guilty, as they are very well aware. In short, there are very few who can think, but every man wants to have an opinion; and what remains but to take it ready-made from others, instead of forming opinions for himself?

Since this is what happens, where is the value of the opinion even of a hundred millions? It is no more established than an historical fact reported by a hundred chroniclers who can be proved to have plagiarized it from one another; the opinion in the end being traceable to a single individual.

Schopenhauer on Cascades - TierneyLab Blog - NYTimes.com
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Old 09-07-2009, 04:30 PM   #86
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I have no argument with what you posted. Each person has to find what works for them. That may mean tweaking a diet/exercise plan to work for them. Having had a weight problem since my teens better information, time and resources seem to be working this time. (That and wanting the next 50 years to be better than the last 50. )
I have no argument either. I only bristle when it's said that it won't make you lose weight. I hope I'm not coming across as saying it's the best way for everyone to lose weight. When people ask me about losing weight, I tell them to do what works and what they can stick with, and preferably a combination of both improved diet and exercise. Given all of this info, I'll probably add that there seems to be more recent evidence towards the diet side being more effective for more people, but I'll always say that exercise has worked for me.

I probably need to do more cutting of carbs when I'm not ramping up for a long race, to keep my weight down between times when I'm running a lot.
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Old 09-07-2009, 05:21 PM   #87
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I probably need to do more cutting of carbs when I'm not ramping up for a long race, to keep my weight down between times when I'm running a lot.
This is a big statement. Look at a French movie from the 50s, or remember photos your parents took on visits to Paris. Everyone is thin, except perhaps the pâtissier. What most of us seek is a way to stay lean without race training, which in any case can get awfully difficult as ageing goes on, professional and family responsibilities press on us, etc.

Ha
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Old 09-07-2009, 05:47 PM   #88
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Here's an interesting quote from Arthur Schopenhauer supplied by by John Tierney in NYT that helps to show how these wrong headed ideas (that saturated fat is deadly) get adopted and grow. It's a favorite topic of mine also, as it illustrates the haplessness of public judgment, and by extension modern mass democratic processes.

Schopenhauer on Cascades

By John Tierney

The last post generated some excellent nominations for cascades, and I welcome more, as well as suggestions for stopping mistaken cascades.
To inspire you, here’s a great description of the phenomenon from the 19th-century German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer. (Hat tip: Vladimir Lojen.) Although the math of cascades wouldn’t be worked out for another century or two, Schopenhauer beautifully described both the informational cascade and the reputational cascade. Here’s the excerpt from chapter 3 of the “The Art of Controversy”:

When we come to look into the matter, so-called universal opinion is the opinion of two or three persons; and we should be persuaded of this if we could see the way in which it really arises.
We should find that it is two or three persons who, in the first instance, accepted it, or advanced and maintained it; and of whom people were so good as to believe that they had thoroughly tested it. Then a few other persons, persuaded beforehand that the first were men of the requisite capacity, also accepted the opinion. These, again, were trusted by many others, whose laziness suggested to them that it was better to believe at once, than to go through the troublesome task of testing the matter for themselves. Thus the number of these lazy and credulous adherents grew from day to day; for the opinion had no sooner obtained a fair measure of support than its further supporters attributed this to the fact that the opinion could only have obtained it by the cogency of its arguments. The remainder were then compelled to grant what was universally granted, so as not to pass for unruly persons who resisted opinions which every one accepted, or pert fellows who thought themselves cleverer than any one else.

When opinion reaches this stage, adhesion becomes a duty; and henceforward the few who are capable of forming a judgment hold their peace. Those who venture to speak are such as are entirely incapable of forming any opinions or any judgment of their own, being merely the echo of others’ opinions; and, nevertheless, they defend them with all the greater zeal and intolerance. For what they hate in people who think differently is not so much the different opinions which they profess, as the presumption of wanting to form their own judgment; a presumption of which they themselves are never guilty, as they are very well aware. In short, there are very few who can think, but every man wants to have an opinion; and what remains but to take it ready-made from others, instead of forming opinions for himself?

Since this is what happens, where is the value of the opinion even of a hundred millions? It is no more established than an historical fact reported by a hundred chroniclers who can be proved to have plagiarized it from one another; the opinion in the end being traceable to a single individual.

Schopenhauer on Cascades - TierneyLab Blog - NYTimes.com
Excellent.
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:42 AM   #89
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In my experience increasing activity does have the results that many on here are saying they don't. I still stand behind my assertion that most improvement from a workout occurs outside the gym though. While going through a recent police academy, I was able to eat free three meals per day. I ate large meal that were rather healthy, but not great. The PT wasn't all that intensive, when compared to my normal fitness routine, but it was decent. I cut from six days per week down to three days every two weeks. Where my activity increased was walking everywhere. For the three months I was there I walked on average two hours per day, going to or from classes, eating, going to the bar, etc. Everything was close so walking was a plausible option on the center. I ate what I wanted and paid no attention to fat, carbs, etc. If I wanted it, I ate it. I dropped 20 lbs while there. I saw a similar drop in weight with the DW when we lived in Europe. We walked everywhere, because we didn't have a car and everything was close. The DW dropped over 30 pounds in a matter of a few months. Considering the time frames involved and there really wasn't any concerted effort to change our diets in either circumstance, the only logical conclusion was the increased activity was the cause of the weight loss.

For the record I workout to eat. I love food and if I didn't workout I'd be huge, so my workouts are a bit intense for many people, but it keeps me from gaining a bunch of fat. The only time I really pay attention to my food intake is from January until about April or May, when I cut fat for the summer season, otherwise I eat what I want. During that same time period I increase my cardio workouts dramatically and blow through huge amounts of calories. As others stated, this works for me and I have the ability to control what I look like from years of experimentation. Only five more lbs until I'm BMI obese again, I'll be there next summer (hopefully).
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Old 09-08-2009, 02:36 PM   #90
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Need to get my eyes checked. When I first read the title of the thread I thought it said "Why excuses won't make you lose weight". Makes sense to me! I can think of lots of reasons not to exercise and why that runny Brie is good for me(calcium fights osteoporosis you know).
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:23 PM   #91
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Need to get my eyes checked. When I first read the title of the thread I thought it said "Why excuses won't make you lose weight". Makes sense to me! I can think of lots of reasons not to exercise and why that runny Brie is good for me(calcium fights osteoporosis you know).
Having a proxy to do your running sounds like a neat plan
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Old 09-08-2009, 07:31 PM   #92
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Need to get my eyes checked. When I first read the title of the thread I thought it said "Why excuses won't make you lose weight". Makes sense to me! I can think of lots of reasons not to exercise and why that runny Brie is good for me(calcium fights osteoporosis you know).



This thread has actually motivated Miss Slug here to quit making excuses and get walking on the treadmill downstairs in the newly reorganized family room. I did 30 minutes of walking today at a slow speed just to warm up the legs to the idea. It felt really good to get moving.
I watched Who Wants To Be a Millionaire while I walked and "won" $32000. The real contestant wimped out on an Native American culture question which I knew the answer to.
I have to be careful with my knees until I get them back up to snuff. My left kneecap is not always a happy camper and the orthopedist who evaluated the Xray told me to limit walking to a mile or two max or risk messing it up more.
I gave dh2b permission to nag me about doing a short walk every day. You folks can nag me too if you like.
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:57 PM   #93
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This thread has actually motivated Miss Slug here to quit making excuses and get walking on the treadmill downstairs in the newly reorganized family room. I did 30 minutes of walking today at a slow speed just to warm up the legs to the idea. It felt really good to get moving.
I watched Who Wants To Be a Millionaire while I walked and "won" $32000. The real contestant wimped out on an Native American culture question which I knew the answer to.
I have to be careful with my knees until I get them back up to snuff. My left kneecap is not always a happy camper and the orthopedist who evaluated the Xray told me to limit walking to a mile or two max or risk messing it up more.
I gave dh2b permission to nag me about doing a short walk every day. You folks can nag me too if you like.

Walk its good for you. Besides you can walk and watch CNBC. Thats quality entertainment while you walk.

Oh and eat your vegetables. Plus make sure you wear clean underwear before you go out. Never know!
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:10 PM   #94
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...
I gave dh2b permission to nag me about doing a short walk every day. You folks can nag me too if you like.
nope not going to do it... okay have you had your walk today and don't forget tomorrow... good for you freebird5825
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Old 09-09-2009, 07:23 AM   #95
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Yup, your nagging helped. I read this thread and went downstairs and got down to business.
Today's 31 minute, 1.2 mile walking session was accompanied by 5 minutes of SpongeBob, 10 minutes of NASA atmospheric & space balloon technology, and 15 minutes of Jerry Lewis in the Nutty Professor on AMC. The 1960s poofed up hairdos and sleeveless glitter dresses were cracking me up.
I think I've broken the code to get me to do the treadmill. Put something interesting or silly on the tube and keep it to approx a mile so my knee doesn't bark at me. The trick now is to keep with it.

A mile a day keeps the doctor away. (Apologies to Rich and Meadbh )
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Old 09-09-2009, 06:30 PM   #96
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Yup, your nagging helped. I read this thread and went downstairs and got down to business.
Today's 31 minute, 1.2 mile walking session was accompanied by 5 minutes of SpongeBob, 10 minutes of NASA atmospheric & space balloon technology, and 15 minutes of Jerry Lewis in the Nutty Professor on AMC. The 1960s poofed up hairdos and sleeveless glitter dresses were cracking me up.
I think I've broken the code to get me to do the treadmill. Put something interesting or silly on the tube and keep it to approx a mile so my knee doesn't bark at me. The trick now is to keep with it.

A mile a day keeps the doctor away. (Apologies to Rich and Meadbh )
I'm really impressed.

Keep up the good work, and build up slowly so you don't hurt yourself.
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Old 09-09-2009, 06:36 PM   #97
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Oh and eat your vegetables. Plus make sure you wear clean underwear before you go out. Never know!
What's underwear?

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Yup, your nagging helped. I read this thread and went downstairs and got down to business.
I hear that's good exercise, too...
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:17 AM   #98
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I'm really impressed.
Keep up the good work, and build up slowly so you don't hurt yourself.
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I hear that's good exercise, too...

Alan - I ran track in HS, as a miler and 3rd leg on 440 relay. I also played a lot of sports informally: racquetball, volleyball, tennis, softball, basketball in my salad days. I must have done some minor damage back then. It's all been checked out medically and recommendation was to limit walking to a mile or two max to avoid further problems. I can live with that. I'm hoping the walking will strengthen the other muscles around the kneecap for support. My knees feel just a little sore today. I slow down or stop when the barking starts.

HFWR - when you see me refer to indoor sports, that's the cue.

Off I go again to da treadmill...
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:49 PM   #99
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Brilliant call and response messages in this exercise thread:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2774/aw3c84p.jpg

There are some good writers out there.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:33 PM   #100
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Brilliant call and response messages in this exercise thread:

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/2774/aw3c84p.jpg

There are some good writers out there.
Well done!
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