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Old 10-19-2012, 11:48 AM   #21
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I don't think so. I got PF in both feet and I have never been a runner or athletic at all. I did have a job which involved lots of walking, mostly on hard pavement, for 17 years, but I doubt the wear and tear on my feet from that would be anywhere near as much as it is for someone who runs several miles a day.
I can relate to this. We were on vacation recently and walking 6 to 11 miles per day on pavement, plus lots of standing in museums. My right foot started hurting a bit and had to switch to my old running shoes with Spenco inserts. Foot still hurts a bit, on and off, so I'm not running today.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:22 PM   #22
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I never could run because of scoliosis, so I went for long walks instead. This was during the big 80's "running boom." Runners would make fun of me for "going too slow." Guys would ask me out based on my fit looks, then be disappointed when I "couldn't keep up with them." I got laughed at for asking if 5-K races could include a walkers' contingent.

Guess they're all walking too, now, if they're lucky.

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Old 10-19-2012, 02:15 PM   #23
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Have you tried a Foot Rubz massage ball for the plantar fasciitis?

Amazon.com: Foot Rubz Foot Massage Ball Also Great for Backs and Hands: Sports & Outdoors

Although I don't suffer from this, I have had some problems with tendonitis around my arch, and picked up one of the balls for $6. It feels good and seems to help. When I googled it to see how to use it properly, I read a lot of reviews about how helpful it is for plantar fasciitis.
Actually, I found soaking in a bucket of ice water worked well. Now keep an old can of beans in the freezer; take it out and roll foot on it. I've never taken even aspirin, but have been taking an Advil now and then; figure the anti-inflamatory properties helps. The PF is basically inflamation of the tendon in your arch from heel to toes. As I've bitched about it to friends I find if someone hasn't had it, they know many who do. If you have it you'll know it; first manifestation of it is pain in heel(s) when you get up in morning.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:43 PM   #24
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I can relate to this. We were on vacation recently and walking 6 to 11 miles per day on pavement, plus lots of standing in museums. My right foot started hurting a bit and had to switch to my old running shoes with Spenco inserts. Foot still hurts a bit, on and off, so I'm not running today.
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Actually, I found soaking in a bucket of ice water worked well. Now keep an old can of beans in the freezer; take it out and roll foot on it. I've never taken even aspirin, but have been taking an Advil now and then; figure the anti-inflamatory properties helps. The PF is basically inflamation of the tendon in your arch from heel to toes. As I've bitched about it to friends I find if someone hasn't had it, they know many who do. If you have it you'll know it; first manifestation of it is pain in heel(s) when you get up in morning.
It was walking that brought on my PF, hiking 625 miles over a 6 month period last year. DW has flat feet but she managed just fine.

It has taken a lot of treatment and effort to fix my PF, and I now keep it under control with Aleve (naproxin) when needed but usually stretching it and using a bottle of frozen water that I keep in the freezer to massage it after exercise works just fine.

We did a lot of hiking on vacation - 225 miles - this past few months and whenever we got the chance to soak our feet in a cold stream or river on route, it felt great and definitely helped.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:07 PM   #25
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This conversation reminds me of the old Hee Haw TV show where the patient tells the Doc it hurts when he does this or that. The Doc replys simply - then don't do that.
My family Doc commented that he has seen my DW and I walking quite a bit over the years. I told him I was thinking about taking up running to improve my heart rate and BP. He told me no way, you'll hurt yourself and then have real problems. I think I'll keep him.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:11 PM   #26
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60 ain't big.......60 ain't nuttin'.........wait until you hit 70.....you'll yearn for the halcyon days of your 50s and 60s.
Nemo, with your stair climbing workouts, I suspect your better days are still ahead, and you've probably left no vitality in the rear view mirror.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #27
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It seems as one gets older, it gets tougher to recover from little aches and pains, and certainly major injuries. Couple that with an older person's quest to never age by trying to maintain exercise intensity of a 20 year old - then you have problems. Last year I used to run 5 days a week, but developed injures to the point where now I can only hike and bike for cardio - at lesser intensity and frequency than what I'm used to. And it's tough mentally to have to adjust to a "lesser" workout. But if you maintain a sensible diet and exercise program, you'll find that do not not have to exercise like a 20 year old to stay fit.
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:58 PM   #28
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Yeah, I figured I'd be feeling the love on this thread... I was hoping to learn about some magic potion missing from my diet or advanced massage techniques. Heck, I'd even stab myself with a B12 needle if I thought it'd do any good.

I take ibuprofen as safely as I know how-- always after food, and rarely more than 5-6x/week. 800mg is my orthopedic surgeon's recommendation to ensure the anti-inflammatory effect can kick in. I never take it before a workout-- the last thing I need is a pain-free workout without feedback on when I'm overdoing it. At least it seems less risky than Naproxen.

Ironically this morning's workout with spouse was "back to normal"-- six weeks after we came back from our Mainland trip, we finally did our full sets of everything. And I know now that I can boost the weight on the squat bar a bit more. But I'm looking forward to my usual nap...

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Well, maybe look at it this way: If you overdo taekwondo, will you miss the next morning's scheduled dawn patrol? How important is that to you? How about the yardwork?
To me, it sounds like taekwondo is more important to you because it is something you enjoy with your daughter, rather than it simply being something you enjoy. I hear you on that...it is really important to keep that close connection. But if it means you have to give up the dawn patrol (also a shared connection with DD), what would you do?
At 50+ our bodies simply will not recover as fast as they did when we were in our 20s, even if we are relatively fit compared to the general population. I found that out myself, trying to run and ride my way to being able to do a triathlon, after never being very active in vigorous sports until 4 years ago.
Given your enjoyment of the various activities, whether it is just because you love it, or because you love your daughter, or somewhere in between, it may very well be worth the effort to try to tame the most intense of your efforts just a little, or you may injure your body, or your pride, to the point of not wanting or being able to go back. Not going back does not sound like a very good option to me.
That's right, taekwondo has been a lot less fun since my daughter left for college (two years ago). I give TKD a lower priority than surfing, and I try to give both a higher priority than yardwork. But when the green waste biweekly pickup day looms nigh, I can skip a TKD workout. Maybe even a dawn patrol.

I think the worst part about Wednesday's squats was the betrayal/surprise of how quickly my brain exceeded my physical limits. I probably could have paddled out on Thursday morning, but I was still a bit concerned about cramping up at a bad time.

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You mean other than your grip on reality?
Your thread title sums it up. You can run, but you cannot hide from what age does to the human body.
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Um, is there some reason you cannot keep doing all the things you do, but just do a bit less of them?
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Suggestion: learn to replace competitiveness with wisdom.
Heh-- it's a self-imposed hypercompetitive drive. After 40+ years of that lifestyle, it's hard to let go. So far all that's "doing less" is yardwork & home improvement. TKD is best with a minimum of two practices per week, which I'm barely maintaining now. It was pretty darn hard coming back from a six-month break, so I'm going to stick with it or quit cold turkey. I can't go down to once per week (injuries), and I know better now than to do three or four per week. Dropping down to the adult color-belt class is no good either-- I barely break a sweat there now, and I'd rather stay with the black belt adults and learn the rest of the black belt forms.

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Not a lot of sympathy here! I've run since 30's (61 now) and plantar faciitis is killing that. Got a mountain bike, and now having knee problem as well.
Been through those, too. Luckily the PF wasn't very severe, and TKD does a lot for foot muscles. With all the other exercise I do, these days I only ride my bicycle if we run out of cars.

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maybe become a guinea pig for these guys
Has The Fountain of Youth Been Discovered? : Discovery News
Yeah, that and calorie restriction! I so want to believe, but they're still rats.

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If you are looking for another martial art, give a look at Uechi-Ryu... It is a traditional Okinawan karate. I love it.
Hunh, thanks, that has to exist somewhere on this island's culture. Never heard of it before, but I'll look for it.

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Sounds like it is time to form your own dojo - Mature Taekwondo, or whatever. Keep up the sport but at a sensible pace. Following a 30 y/o into the emergency room is dumb.
I didn't appreciate what I'd done to myself until it was too late, and I'm sure the instructor never saw it coming. It'd be tough to leave this dojang, but I'll have to ask that question. Based on the awards won by the instructors & students, I'm in the best dojang in the state. But of course the flip side is that it's very competitive, and it's youth-oriented. I'm even a decade older than the owner, although I think he's starting to see a tiny glimpse of the same recovery problem.

I'm going to have to have a quiet talk with the owner about bowing out when I've reached my limit. That'd mean leaving 40-50 minutes into some workouts instead of staying for the full hour. I don't think anybody will mind once they know it can happen, but I don't want anyone getting worried and reaching for the defibrillator...
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:03 PM   #29
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Nemo, with your stair climbing workouts, I suspect your better days are still ahead, and you've probably left no vitality in the rear view mirror.
If only!

~ 10 years ago, after my late wife died, I was cycling 50 miles a day, doing pushups and such.......blew out my elbows doing the latter, (osteoarthritis is a likely factor)......all in the past.

But.....I did two stair workouts the other day, and at one point as I was descending, two young boys arrived waiting to carry their bikes up.......when they realized I was going back up, the youngest/smallest, aged about 13, who was the obvious spokesman, said I should go ahead of them.

I got out of their way at the top, and the young guy asked how many reps I did in a day.......when I told him, he looked at me and said "Wow, good shape!"

But...then again, his grandfather is probably younger than me and an overweight smoker.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:40 PM   #30
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Long time lurker here... saw your message and felt compelled to join and respond.

I see many responses here that suggest to accept the inevitable and to live within the new limitations. I disagree with that approach and am fighting it any way I can.

My sporting activities are skiing during the winter and mountain biking and sand court volleyball during the rest of the year. Training for these activities keeps me going to the gym nearly everyday. Keeping up with the diet and training is a full time effort! Who has time for a job!

I am also in my early 50s and have noticed the recovery problem you mentioned. The root problem appears to be loss of muscle mass. For me, the additional muscle mass seems to prevent injuries and to help rehabilitate the injured tissues. ( I can give lots of examples).
My challenge has been with a variety of injuries over the past few years that have been accumulating despite physical therapy and rest and diet and ibuprofen.

For a variety of reasons, I recently had my testosterone levels checked and was diagnosed with Low T. Further exams showed I also had low estrogen and osteopenia (precursor to osteoporosis).

So, I started testosterone injections nearly 3 months ago.

Its early still, but the results are favorable. I am finally able to workout through old injuries without aggravation. My workouts are approaching the results I last achieved 8 years ago.

HRT is something for you to investigate.

Also about your cramping. You mention that you are paleo and low carb... that's fine as I am wheat free and junk food free myself. But the carbs are important and your cramping suggests insufficient glycogen and electrolytes.

I try to workout nearly 1.5 hours every morning (weightlifting and HIIT). Good carbs, along with protein, are an important part of the recovery process.

My workouts are in the morning, so I have healthy carbs before and after my workout. I generally consume 80% of my carbs by lunch. I switch to protein and fats for my afternoon snack, dinner and late night snack.

Also, I don't know anything about your workouts. Bodybuilding.com has a geezer forum to read through and I always recommend P90X as a great, comprehensive workout... for those who are already active!

Hope this helps.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:52 PM   #31
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Thanks-- and welcome to the board!

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I am also in my early 50s and have noticed the recovery problem you mentioned. The root problem appears to be loss of muscle mass. For me, the additional muscle mass seems to prevent injuries and to help rehabilitate the injured tissues. ( I can give lots of examples).
My challenge has been with a variety of injuries over the past few years that have been accumulating despite physical therapy and rest and diet and ibuprofen.
I've shed a lot of fat and actually put on 10-20 pounds of muscle since I retired, especially in legs/chest/shoulders. I worry more about overtraining injuries than muscle mass, and I'm way more likely to overtrain. Of course needing a longer recovery time seems to keep me from being able to overtrain, so maybe this "problem" will eventually be self-correcting.

I've noticed that I've lost a lot of subcutaneous fat in the last few years. (I certainly feel it when the surf temperature drops.) But I think that's a separate issue.

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For a variety of reasons, I recently had my testosterone levels checked and was diagnosed with Low T. Further exams showed I also had low estrogen and osteopenia (precursor to osteoporosis).
So, I started testosterone injections nearly 3 months ago.
Its early still, but the results are favorable. I am finally able to workout through old injuries without aggravation. My workouts are approaching the results I last achieved 8 years ago.
My behavior in these situations makes me worry more about testosterone poisoning than deficiency. But seriously, I've read that a man's "normal" range is a pretty wide distribution. How does the medical field determine "low" if they don't know my baseline? And then there's the issue of whether my spouse really thinks it's a good idea to raise my testosterone levels...

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HRT is something for you to investigate.
I'm under the impression that's associated with menopause. Is there a male version of HRT?

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Also about your cramping. You mention that you are paleo and low carb... that's fine as I am wheat free and junk food free myself. But the carbs are important and your cramping suggests insufficient glycogen and electrolytes.
I'm not a paleo zealot, so I still get carbs-- for example pizza. I didn't mean to give the impression that glycogen or electrolytes were the source of the cramping. Hydration is a big deal around here. I'm usually well fed and thoroughly hydrated, and I was on that night as well. I can't remember the last time I had a cramp, but I've had plenty of sore muscles from overtraining. This was just a matter of 100+ squats leading to exertion exhaustion, lots of lactic acid, and a slow removal.

But I have to admit that testosterone "supplementation" is a tempting question to research.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:30 AM   #32
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The concern with muscle mass is that we know it decreases with age. As we try to maintain our activity levels, the mass that remains has to do more work... leading to quicker fatigue and longer recovery (and possible injury).

Your original post mentioned that you were dragging even after good sleep. That was one of my symptoms.

Normal testosterone is between 300 and 1000. I initially tested below 300 and am now trying to achieve a level around 900. Too much causes me to be too alert all night long.

>> Is there a male version of HRT?

For males, the hormone of interest is testosterone (TRT). You probably see ads for some of the topical products. I preferred the injections (much cheaper).

As for the cramping, 100 body weight squats is not all that much for someone who works out regularly. Furthermore, these squats work primarily the quad muscles, but its your hamstrings that are cramping. To me, that suggests there is more than too much exercise involved. This cramping should be investigated.

Being highly active requires proper and supportive nutrition. Half a pizza a week is neither proper nor supportive. Lots of studies show a carb and protien recovery drink consumed within 1 hour of a workout provides the optimal recovery nutrition. I consume 2 of these nearly every day.

I don't mean to be critical, but your original post asked for ideas and opinions... I'm just sharing how I am combatting these same issues!
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:08 PM   #33
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I thought of this thread when I played tennis today.

These days it takes me a while to get ready as I have to put on ankle braces, knee braces, a back brace and a wrist brace. I also like to wear a heart monitor since my max HR these days is a measly 163 (soon to be 162) using the 220-age formula. (In my hour long cardio challenge class on Thursday I had to slow down on the final run as it hit 170).

After playing I also need to stretch, ibuprofein at times, and then take a bubble bath.

I accept that at some point I'll have to switch to doubles and eventually stop playing, but until that happens I'll make whatever modifications it takes.
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Old 10-20-2012, 10:31 PM   #34
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All of these tales of woe say loud and clear to me that I should try to have activities and hobbies that I enjoy that I will be able to do even when I am declining physically. Brewing is extremely physical as I currently do it, but with some somewhat expensive equipment I could reduce a lot of the physical effort. Hiking I suppose is as tough or as easy as you wish to make it (all day marches at 10,000 feet are probably out when I am 70). Hunting seems to be only slightly more physical than hiking (chasing squirrels on flat ground is not tough vs. dragging a mule deer to my truck on steep ground at 9,000 feet). Fishing can be pretty easy (snoozing in a chair while keeping a lose grip on the rod).

Wow, I really have been getting in touch with my inner redneck lately...
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Old 10-20-2012, 11:02 PM   #35
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There's a lot of discussion on cramping in the running community. The usual tale is that your electrolytes are down, and getting salt and/or potassium will help. Others think it is simply a matter of asking your muscles to do too much. In the running world, that means running a marathon at a pace you aren't in shape for. I think it's probably some of each, and in your case you probably just over-fatigued those muscles.

At 50 and getting back into shape after missing a few months due to ACL repair, I really have to watch increasing my running too quickly. One week I'll feel good and able to do my planned runs, and the next week my legs are just heavy and listless, and I have to cut back. I've always been used to trying to push my limits, but that's not working well for me right now.

Then there's Ed Whitlock Runs 3:30 Marathon At Age 81 | Newswire. And he's slowed from 3:15 last year, because he broke a rib late last year and missed a few months of training. I've beat his 3:30 time, but not 3:15. Don't tell Ed he's getting old.

Sorry, no magic that I know of. I figure if I can keep showing up for my races that's better than trying to scorch one and take myself out for months afterward. But it's not like I'm slacking off. I have in mind to get back to full strength next year, and run a 100 miler in 2014.
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Old 10-20-2012, 11:35 PM   #36
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I was getting night cramps or restless leg syndrome. I walk on pavement a lot and do a bit of hiking and backpacking. I found taking a magnesium supplement helps a lot.
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Old 10-21-2012, 03:41 PM   #37
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Bodybuilding.com has a geezer forum to read through and I always recommend P90X as a great, comprehensive workout... for those who are already active!

Hope this helps.
Did BodyBuilding.Com add a geezer forum or are you referring to the over35 forum? If the later, most of those guys, with a few exceptions, are not in the geezer category from my perspective.
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Old 10-21-2012, 04:55 PM   #38
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Sorry about the confusion... it is the over35 forum. There are plenty of conversations about nutrition, aches, pains, injuries and generally doing less.

There are participants that are very knowledgeable and certainly some that can lift a lot of weight. But, they offer plenty of knowledge and enthusiasm for staying fit while aging.

I find it to be a good resource to find ideas that I can make work for myself and my challenges... you know, pains, injuries and doing less!
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:42 PM   #39
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The concern with muscle mass is that we know it decreases with age. As we try to maintain our activity levels, the mass that remains has to do more work... leading to quicker fatigue and longer recovery (and possible injury).
Your original post mentioned that you were dragging even after good sleep. That was one of my symptoms.
Sure. But my legs are more muscular at age 52 than they were at age 41, both visibly/measurably and due to the few thousands of squats & lunges I've done for the last decade of physical therapy after tearing my ACLs. Now maybe my body's trying to repair more muscle mass, but I think the issue is that it's taking longer to repair the existing mass. So I'll ask for a testosterone assessment at my next physical and see what comes up.

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As for the cramping, 100 body weight squats is not all that much for someone who works out regularly. Furthermore, these squats work primarily the quad muscles, but its your hamstrings that are cramping. To me, that suggests there is more than too much exercise involved. This cramping should be investigated.
Actually I think the squats were a considerable effort. The first 50 were body weight squats, the second 50 were side-split squats (lots more weight on one leg), and I hit failure on the subsequent single-leg squats. If you can do 55 minutes of taekwondo training and then the first 100 squats as described and finally pop off five single-leg squats (with the other foot in the air, with or without an ACL in your knees) then you should consider marketing a training video. I'd buy it.

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Half a pizza a week is neither proper nor supportive.
Oh please. Veggie pizza as a dinner once a week, with a couple of leftover lunches over the following 2-3 days? Without pizza and an occasional chocolate protein bar then this discussion isn't worth having because life wouldn't be worth living. Heck, my drinking days are behind me and I hardly ever even eat cake or cookies anymore.

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These days it takes me a while to get ready as I have to put on ankle braces, knee braces, a back brace and a wrist brace. I also like to wear a heart monitor since my max HR these days is a measly 163 (soon to be 162) using the 220-age formula. (In my hour long cardio challenge class on Thursday I had to slow down on the final run as it hit 170).
After playing I also need to stretch, ibuprofein at times, and then take a bubble bath.
I accept that at some point I'll have to switch to doubles and eventually stop playing, but until that happens I'll make whatever modifications it takes.
I finally stopped wearing my knee braces at TKD 2-3 years ago. My knees no longer needed the support and were working harder to move the braces around than they'd be working to move me around. I keep up with the joint stability by doing lots of lunges & squats.

I'm beginning to appreciate the data afforded by a heart monitor. One of these days I'll get around to it.

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All of these tales of woe say loud and clear to me that I should try to have activities and hobbies that I enjoy that I will be able to do even when I am declining physically. Brewing is extremely physical as I currently do it, but with some somewhat expensive equipment I could reduce a lot of the physical effort. Hiking I suppose is as tough or as easy as you wish to make it (all day marches at 10,000 feet are probably out when I am 70). Hunting seems to be only slightly more physical than hiking (chasing squirrels on flat ground is not tough vs. dragging a mule deer to my truck on steep ground at 9,000 feet). Fishing can be pretty easy (snoozing in a chair while keeping a lose grip on the rod).
Yep, I can see a lot of walking & swimming in my future. However I worry that without taekwondo I won't maintain the reflexes/proprioception to avoid tripping over a sidewalk bump and falling flat on my face. Not that something like this happened to my 70-year-old mother-in-law or anything.

Speaking of your inner redneck, there's a definite squirrel shortage in Hawaii. Maybe we could market it here as "flash-frozen free range enhanced-protein sciurus". Or maybe squirrely jerky?

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Others think it is simply a matter of asking your muscles to do too much. In the running world, that means running a marathon at a pace you aren't in shape for. I think it's probably some of each, and in your case you probably just over-fatigued those muscles.
I was definitely asking my leg muscles to do too much at the end of a workout. The muscles between my knees and my ribs get a good workout before the end of the hour. Arms-- not so much. I can pop off 100 situps or 100 pushups without too much fussing at the end of the workout, but those squats were quite the unpleasant surprise.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:56 PM   #40
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Speaking of your inner redneck, there's a definite squirrel shortage in Hawaii. Maybe we could market it here as "flash-frozen free range enhanced-protein sciurus". Or maybe squirrely jerky?
Eh, then I would have to farm the damn things. Its a lot more fun to walk through the woods and "collect" them from the trees.
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