Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
GM Suspends Dividend Payments..........
Old 07-15-2008, 08:45 AM   #1
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
GM Suspends Dividend Payments..........

Might be the beginning of the end. Art G, what does your crystal ball say??
__________________

__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 07-15-2008, 09:21 AM   #2
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Do you mean the end of GM, or the end of the current market downdraft?

Ha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 10:09 AM   #3
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
Do you mean the end of GM, or the end of the current market downdraft?
Ha
End of GM..........at least until the bankruptcy courts rule.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 10:39 AM   #4
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,543
if GM ever goes Chap 11, it will be litigated for years to come

the only people to make money off it will be GM execs getting nice retention bonuses, lawyers, and the investment banks with their restructuring consulting fees
__________________
al_bundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 10:43 AM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
if GM ever goes Chap 11, it will be litigated for years to come
How can you litigate 50 years or bad management decisions and a greedy union?? :confused:

Quote:
the only people to make money off it will be GM execs getting nice retention bonuses, lawyers, and the investment banks with their restructuring consulting fees
Per usual.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 11:07 AM   #6
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,543
i bet the unions will spend a fortune litigating their pensions, medical benefits, plant closings and whatever

i think the last strike was in 2006 and i remember reading that part of the contract was a promise by GM to keep some models around for a specified amount of time. can't remember the details but it amazed me that the UAW was telling GM which models to build and for how long
__________________
al_bundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 12:03 PM   #7
Recycles dryer sheets
StJohnsWood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 157
You make a garbage product and this is what happens. I was born in the 1960's and my perception of GM and Ford is JUNK. Shame on me but that's how I see both. I would never buy either.
__________________
StJohnsWood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 12:14 PM   #8
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_bundy View Post
i bet the unions will spend a fortune litigating their pensions, medical benefits, plant closings and whatever

i think the last strike was in 2006 and i remember reading that part of the contract was a promise by GM to keep some models around for a specified amount of time. can't remember the details but it amazed me that the UAW was telling GM which models to build and for how long
I thought one of the rules of litigation is that the party being litigated has the WHEREWITHAL to pay for damages award against them. Tell me where GM has the money to pay damages on settlements against them??

Oldsmobile is a classic example. GM spent $5 BILLION retooling Oldsmobile to save the brand. They FINALLY got it right with the Aurora, except they were 15 years TOO LATE in doing it. I know three people still driving Auroras with the Northstar V-8s, all over 150,000 miles and holding up well.........

Management stupidity coupled with no spine in dealing with the UAW = recipe for disaster.............
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 12:15 PM   #9
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by StJohnsWood View Post
You make a garbage product and this is what happens. I was born in the 1960's and my perception of GM and Ford is JUNK. Shame on me but that's how I see both. I would never buy either.
That's true of some of their products, maybe even most, but producing low quality isn't the problem.

The real issue is that unions and government regulations have forced companies like GM to turn into social institutions, carrying an unbearable burden of vacations, health care, and pension plans for their employees.

There's no way a company acting as a social institution can compete in a global market, where the competition isn't saddled with those burdens. If American businesses, like GM, were allowed to function as businesses, there would be no problem staying profitable.
__________________
CaseInPoint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 12:18 PM   #10
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseInPoint View Post
That's true of some of their products, maybe even most, but producing low quality isn't the problem.

The real issue is that unions and government regulations have forced companies like GM to turn into social institutions, carrying an unbearable burden of vacations, health care, and pension plans for their employees.

There's no way a company acting as a social institution can compete in a global market, where the competition isn't saddled with those burdens. If American businesses, like GM, were allowed to function as businesses, there would be no problem staying profitable.
That is true, and it will be painful for GM to reinvent themselves, and a lot of retirees will be hurt, but it must happen for them to compete with Toyota, Honda, and others.

Maybe Ford, GM, and Chrysler can combine and make a domestic "superautomaker"..............
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 12:37 PM   #11
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,020
My coworker just had an idea... GM could pull out of the domestic market and only make cars for other countries.
__________________
Marquette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 12:44 PM   #12
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquette View Post
My coworker just had an idea... GM could pull out of the domestic market and only make cars for other countries.
They could make a killing in China and other developing countries. I often think of the hare-brained idea I threw at a factory guy back in the 90's.

I worked at a Pontiac dealer that had Chevy also. There were LOTS of similarities in the cars except the Pontiacs had stiffer suspensions, more chrome, and more gadgets.

I suggested GM should merge Pontiac and Chevy into Chevy. However, customers could order a "Pontiac package" for $3000-$5000 more, for which they would get speed-rated tires, stiffer suspension, dual chrome exhaust, a fancier chip for more performance, Pontiac badging, spoiler, luminiscent gauges, tach, etc.

I never saw a guy laugh so hard in my life..........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 12:50 PM   #13
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,543
GM is doing pretty well in China, sales are growing 50% annually
__________________
al_bundy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 02:05 PM   #14
Full time employment: Posting here.
CitricAcid's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 546
China is pretty much the only place where Buick sells...
__________________
CitricAcid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 02:09 PM   #15
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
Might be the beginning of the end. Art G, what does your crystal ball say??

What do I think? I think cutting out the dividend is a great idea. Watch the stock price rally now.
__________________
Art G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 02:12 PM   #16
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,079
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseInPoint View Post
That's true of some of their products, maybe even most, but producing low quality isn't the problem.
Agreed that they have other, serious, problems ... but the bottom line is no manufacturer of products that few customers are willing to buy can have any future. A well-deserved reputation for shoddy goods is a key part of GM's difficulties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseInPoint View Post
The real issue is that unions and government regulations have forced companies like GM to turn into social institutions, carrying an unbearable burden of vacations, health care, and pension plans for their employees.... If American businesses, like GM, were allowed to function as businesses, there would be no problem staying profitable.
To the best of my knowledge, GM was not forced to do anything. It negotiated collective agreements of its own free will, without any governmental interference. And while I despise unions, one cannot blame the UAW for doing its utmost to feather the beds of its members.
__________________
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
Milton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 03:21 PM   #17
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton View Post
Agreed that they have other, serious, problems ... but the bottom line is no manufacturer of products that few customers are willing to buy can have any future. A well-deserved reputation for shoddy goods is a key part of GM's difficulties.
You're right that a company cannot survive without sales. Seeing a drop in sales across all manufacturers, though, may tell us that the issue is not necessarily one of quality. For example, even Toyota, with its high-quality offerings has seen a drop in sales.

It's just a matter of time before car sales pick up, though, as older cars break down and repairs become more costly than the price of a new lease.

I do think that the era of large gas guzzlers is coming to an abrupt end, so the question will be whether GM can shift its manufacturing to smaller cars. That will take major restructuring (meaning many more layoffs and transfers). In the end, though, GM might have to cut off its cushy employee benefits to stay afloat.

Quote:
To the best of my knowledge, GM was not forced to do anything. It negotiated collective agreements of its own free will, without any governmental interference. And while I despise unions, one cannot blame the UAW for doing its utmost to feather the beds of its members.
Well, union negotiations are basically legalized blackmail. Of course, I don't blame the unions themselves for doing their best for their members (and corrupt leaders), but it sure looks like big business can no longer afford unions altogether. Maybe GM will be forced to follow the Wal-Mart's model.
__________________
CaseInPoint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 05:08 PM   #18
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,079
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseInPoint View Post
It's just a matter of time before car sales pick up, though, as older cars break down and repairs become more costly than the price of a new lease.
I guess that's true. While the experience of Cuba suggests that people are able to make cars last a long time if they have to, the Cuban climate is probably a lot better for old cars than that of the northern states and Canada, where generous winter salt usage is usually a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseInPoint View Post
I do think that the era of large gas guzzlers is coming to an abrupt end
Oh I do hope so. They're just BAD, on so many levels.
__________________
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
Milton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 05:22 PM   #19
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton View Post
To the best of my knowledge, GM was not forced to do anything. It negotiated collective agreements of its own free will, without any governmental interference.
Various laws (i.e. government interference) tipped the balance against companies and toward unions in these negotiations. It's better in some places than others (e.g. "right-to-work" states here in the US typically are more evenhanded in their laws", but that's not where most GM operations are based).
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2008, 06:54 PM   #20
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseInPoint View Post
You're right that a company cannot survive without sales. Seeing a drop in sales across all manufacturers, though, may tell us that the issue is not necessarily one of quality. For example, even Toyota, with its high-quality offerings has seen a drop in sales.

I do think that the era of large gas guzzlers is coming to an abrupt end, so the question will be whether GM can shift its manufacturing to smaller cars. That will take major restructuring (meaning many more layoffs and transfers). In the end, though, GM might have to cut off its cushy employee benefits to stay afloat.
Toyota (-21% in June) sales have not fallen as much as Ford (-28%) or Chrysler (-46%) - and Honda actually sales increased 1% (even they don't know why). GM sales were off -18%. But the critical difference is Toyota and Honda have products in the pipeline now that will meet the needs of a buyer facing $4-7/gal gasoline near term. I suspect the pipeline at GM, Ford and Chrysler is filled with options like the recently introduced Escalade Hybrid ("Intelligent Indulgence" indeed) and the Camaro. And I'd be willing to bet Honda and Toyota will fare far better over the next few years than the 'big three' (doesn't have the ring it once did...).
__________________

__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
SS and Pension Payments megacorp-firee FIRE and Money 20 11-08-2007 11:17 AM
Mortgage payments after Early Retirement walkinwood FIRE and Money 19 04-28-2007 07:45 PM
GM suspends 401(k) match for salaried employees Marketneutral FIRE and Money 72 12-16-2005 06:57 PM
When do Social Security payments start? Retiredtwice Other topics 3 11-18-2005 11:29 AM
Account Balance for Periodic Payments garyrt FIRE and Money 1 08-04-2002 05:25 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:11 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.