Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 01-21-2009, 01:05 AM   #141
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grep View Post
Financedude,

Some will lean towards my view that 5.75-8% sales-loads are a moral hazard and are of ill-service to clients, and some will fall in with other views. So be it.

Have a nice day.
There are no 8% sales loads, but I think you refuse to believe facts. This thread is far away from the OP asking if paying a 1% wrap fee on mutual funds with ERs of .5-1.25% was a good idea, and he got a lot of advice and decided he would stay with it.

You should do a thread search on topics like loads and things. I and others have posted a lot of real world info on here over time...........
__________________

__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 01-21-2009, 01:14 PM   #142
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
There are no 8% sales loads, but I think you refuse to believe facts.
Are you very sure of that?

Now that I think about it, I seem to remember it may have been a Janus fund. I see Janus Growth fund TIDEX has an 8.5% front-end load.

In addition, check out various Legg Mason Partners funds, such as LMPMX, SMCPX, SGCSX, LMPEX, CSGWX, LMGOX, I think all with 8.5% initial loads. Other fund families include EGRWX, IEQTX and SMMIX, also all with ~8.5% sales loads.

Even Fidelity has a couple of egregiously-expensive load funds, including FDESX, with an 8.24% initial load. It may just amount to a typical large-cap growth fund, but with a sales-load that would make Madoff blush, it's got to be worth it!

Have a nice day.
__________________

__________________
Grep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 01:19 PM   #143
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grep View Post
Even Fidelity has a couple of egregiously-expensive load funds, including FDETX, with an 8.24% initial load.

Have a nice day.
FDETX is a no load fund.

In addition, I have never seen a statement that showed the fund load on it. Without knowing the actual fund load the only way to tell is to read the prospectus or to look at the purchase price and compare to the NAV on that date.

FYI - Most of those funds you listed are no load and all Janus funds are no load and their symbol always starts with J.
__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 01:22 PM   #144
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9 View Post
FDETX is a no load fund.
Sorry, FDESX. I corrected it in my earlier post.

By the way, the above is culled from one of many stock screeners. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the data beyond reporting what it came up with.
__________________
Grep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 02:30 PM   #145
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Removed.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 02:38 PM   #146
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
I was not aware that fund companies still charge 8% on some funds. I have never used those funds, and quite frankly find it hard to believe there's an money in those funds, considering the competitive environment that exists.

Ever hear of breakpoints, or rights of accumulation, or letter of intent? There are ways to pay a lot less than 5.75%...........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 04:25 PM   #147
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
I was not aware that fund companies still charge 8% on some funds. I have never used those funds, and quite frankly find it hard to believe there's an money in those funds, considering the competitive environment that exists.
But, competition requires an informed consumer. There are still "advisors," brokers, etc out there who sell via affinity to their customers, and Granny has no idea that she's paying Nephew Fred a huge commission. Sure, Fred has no legal obligation to tell her she's getting a bum deal (any more than the used car dealer has to tell a customer that he/she can get a better deal on a car somewhere else). But, it's probably not realistic to portray these hustlers as helpful counselors to their clients.

There are certainly many FAs and even brokers who do more good than harm. But the high-fee, take-advantage-of-the-customer types (and the expensive products they sell) do a lot to damage the image of the group as a whole.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 04:59 PM   #148
Recycles dryer sheets
Gardnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ENE MO - near STL
Posts: 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
But, competition requires an informed consumer. There are still "advisors," brokers, etc out there who sell via affinity to their customers, and Granny has no idea that she's paying Nephew Fred a huge commission. Sure, Fred has no legal obligation to tell her she's getting a bum deal (any more than the used car dealer has to tell a customer that he/she can get a better deal on a car somewhere else). But, it's probably not realistic to portray these hustlers as helpful counselors to their clients.

There are certainly many FAs and even brokers who do more harm than good. But the high-fee, take-advantage-of-the-customer types (and the expensive products they sell) do a lot to damage the image of the group as a whole.
Exactly. And I think that is Grep's point. (I'll stick up for him a bit here.)

FD need not be so defensive.
__________________
Gardnr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 05:31 PM   #149
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
But, competition requires an informed consumer. There are still "advisors," brokers, etc out there who sell via affinity to their customers, and Granny has no idea that she's paying Nephew Fred a huge commission. Sure, Fred has no legal obligation to tell her she's getting a bum deal (any more than the used car dealer has to tell a customer that he/she can get a better deal on a car somewhere else). But, it's probably not realistic to portray these hustlers as helpful counselors to their clients.

There are certainly many FAs and even brokers who do more harm than good. But the high-fee, take-advantage-of-the-customer types (and the expensive products they sell) do a lot to damage the image of the group as a whole.
Did you mean to say "do more good than harm"? Because the next sentence seems that you mean it to contradict the sentence I've bold faced.

FD can certainly stand up for himself, but I have to say most people I know in real life are not do-it-yourselfers in terms of their finances. They certainly can take care of things themselves but for a variety of reasons choose to pay someone else to do it. I respect their decisions.
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 07:47 PM   #150
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestwifeever View Post
Did you mean to say "do more good than harm"?
Yes, I meant "more good than harm," (though technically I'm sure it's true either way). Thanks--I went back and fixed it.
__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 08:51 PM   #151
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardnr View Post
FD need not be so defensive.
Ever hear the old phrase of "walking a mile in their shoes"?? That's what I am alluding to here. Grep is one of those that think FAs lie in wait around every bush, waiting to pounce on unsuspecting grannies and their ilk............
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 08:53 PM   #152
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Following the nice weather
Posts: 6,454
And your point is?
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Will Rogers, or maybe Sam Clemens
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 08:57 PM   #153
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post
And your point is?
My point is this thread is yet another casualty of massive thread drift, and we have tens if not hundreds of threads about stuff like this. Most folks on here have no idea what an FA's life is like, much like I have never been in the military or worked as an engineer or whatever. When you act like you know everything about an industry you have never worked in, you don't come across well.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 09:12 PM   #154
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Following the nice weather
Posts: 6,454
Man, you are touchy, aren't you. Guess I can't blame you. You do take a lot of grief.

Personally, I've been looking into getting to be a Finance Dude myself. It would be years away, since I'd have to learn a lot, get certified, and all that. I'm not necessarily looking for a career, since I'm FIREd. I was actually thinking of being a fee-only planner/advisor, mostly to try to help people learn about taking care of their finances. So many of the people I know are so completely clueless I would like to help them learn enough to be able to identify the helpers from the sharks. Especially older people, and also youngsters just getting started. Maybe teach some continuing ed classes too.

I don't know if this will ever happen, but it's a thought. When I complained to my DW and DD that I've never found a passion in my life, they both pointed out that I love to read and learn about finances. I tend to get analysis paralysis, but I do really like it. If I could help some people and maybe pick up a few bucks along the way, that would be cool.

So give it a few years, and I might be shoulder to shoulder with you fighting off the barbarians. Or not. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Will Rogers, or maybe Sam Clemens
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 09:30 PM   #155
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post
Man, you are touchy, aren't you. Guess I can't blame you. You do take a lot of grief.
Not that touchy. I realize this is a DIY place and I am viewed as the scourge of mankind. However, IMHO that doesn't mean that just because you have a portfolio for yourself that anyone can be an FA. Many on here probably think that its easy, but with an 80% attrition rate in the first year I beg to differ.......

Quote:
Personally, I've been looking into getting to be a Finance Dude myself. It would be years away, since I'd have to learn a lot, get certified, and all that. I'm not necessarily looking for a career, since I'm FIREd. I was actually thinking of being a fee-only planner/advisor, mostly to try to help people learn about taking care of their finances. So many of the people I know are so completely clueless I would like to help them learn enough to be able to identify the helpers from the sharks. Especially older people, and also youngsters just getting started. Maybe teach some continuing ed classes too.
Hey, why not. However, be aware that fee-based planners are closing up shop right and left. Most can't make it on just doing financial plans. I know of 7 in the Milwaukee area alone that have closed up shop......

Quote:
I don't know if this will ever happen, but it's a thought. When I complained to my DW and DD that I've never found a passion in my life, they both pointed out that I love to read and learn about finances. I tend to get analysis paralysis, but I do really like it. If I could help some people and maybe pick up a few bucks along the way, that would be cool.

So give it a few years, and I might be shoulder to shoulder with you fighting off the barbarians. Or not. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.
That is exactly what I did. I was giving out so much free advice I figured I might as well get paid for it.........
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 09:37 PM   #156
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
My point is this thread is yet another casualty of massive thread drift, and we have tens if not hundreds of threads about stuff like this. Most folks on here have no idea what an FA's life is like, much like I have never been in the military or worked as an engineer or whatever. When you act like you know everything about an industry you have never worked in, you don't come across well.........
Hey, at least you haven't said "You have to understand" or asked us to feel sorry for "the poor salesman".

Having said that, I think that the sins of a few bad apples overwhelm all the good done by those who care. In addition, I think the industry has gone out of its way to confuse, obfuscate, delay, and generally drag their feet in the face of well-meaning attempts to minimize the bad apples.

Witness the widespread growth of 12(b)1 fees and the staunch defense of their continuance. Witness the SEC's food fight over what an advisor is or isn't allowed to say/do. Look at all the funds which are widely agreed to be bloated yet continue to take more money. Look at the expense ratios of said funds, which continue to stay flat or even rise despite the doubling or tripling (or 10-bagging) of the fund's size. (Even Tweedy, Browne has been guilty of these last two issues.) Look at Vanguard's relentless push a few years back to have customers consolidate their assets at their place, even if it wasn't such a good idea.

When I read magazines written by the industry for the industry, it's hard to detect any effort to show customers how to do for themselves. I almost never see articles on "Teach your clients how to evaluate a mutual fund!" or "Here's 10 handy hints on diversification!!" Heck, it's hard to find an advisor who'll lay out the options of American Funds (with all their breakpoints), DFA (with all their slice & dice), Vanguard (indexes), and ETFs (cap gains efficiency). Instead it's mainly about holding customer's hands and reassuring them while growing your own business.

A while back you or Saluki mentioned the FA's typical customer-- an upper-middle-class exec who discovered "Holy crap, 95% of my portfolio is locked up in restricted company stock, company stock options, shares of company stock, and deferred compensation. I've spent all the rest of my paychecks on McMansions & SUVs and I might be unemployed later this year. Can you teach me how to save enough to start one of these new-fangled "IRAs" and maybe learn to spell "diversification"?"

You two probably do good work in your jobs and deservedly sleep well at night. But if you're tempted to defend your industry, then you oughta clean house first.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 10:44 PM   #157
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
saluki9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
You two probably do good work in your jobs and deservedly sleep well at night. But if you're tempted to defend your industry, then you oughta clean house first.
A couple things to be fair and complete.


1. It isn't AN industry, it's many industries. To make it easy you can separate it into 'advisory" business which is fee based and Brokerage which is commission based. Most of the bad happenings occur on the brokerage side, but every once in a while we get some bad press too.

2. Blame mutual fund managers for the 12b-1 issues, that is their creation.

3. I can't really think of another business that exists to educate their customers until they don't need your services. Your doctor has a financial incentive to make sure you don't start diagnosing your own infections, your plumber probably doesn't teach to how to avoid having to call him, why should this business be any different?

4. I don't know which of the industry rags you are reading, but I would start with the Journal of Financial Planning, Financial Planning Magazine, or Investment Advisor. These cater to the fee based market and are mostly comprised of technical articles.

5. I believe that quote you were referencing was from me. If I told our firms average client ($2M+ avg liquid net worth) that I wanted to teach them to do my job for themselves they would refuse 99% of the time. I try to use my time in front of clients to educate them about investments, the differences between asset classes, etc usually with very little interest. Most are happy to pay a % of their assets to have somebody make better decisions for them than they would do on their own.
__________________
saluki9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2009, 11:56 PM   #158
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Following the nice weather
Posts: 6,454
Quote:
Originally Posted by saluki9 View Post
3. I can't really think of another business that exists to educate their customers until they don't need your services. Your doctor has a financial incentive to make sure you don't start diagnosing your own infections, your plumber probably doesn't teach to how to avoid having to call him, why should this business be any different?
Actually I think doctors are continually telling you how to get or stay healthy and would love to never see you again except for regular check-ups. And every plumber, electrician, HVAC guy etc has always shown me what they are doing so if it happens again I won't have to call. I doubt anyone would begrudge a FA his/her fee for regular check-ups if the person didn't want to do it themselves completely. I think it's more the guys who are pushing the high commission products when something better is available that draw the anger. That would be more like your doctor telling you you need a CAT scan to pump his income. I'm sure there are some like that, but they also are deserving of scorn.
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Will Rogers, or maybe Sam Clemens
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 09:10 AM   #159
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
FinanceDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 12,484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post
Witness the widespread growth of 12(b)1 fees and the staunch defense of their continuance. Witness the SEC's food fight over what an advisor is or isn't allowed to say/do. Look at all the funds which are widely agreed to be bloated yet continue to take more money. Look at the expense ratios of said funds, which continue to stay flat or even rise despite the doubling or tripling (or 10-bagging) of the fund's size. (Even Tweedy, Browne has been guilty of these last two issues.) Look at Vanguard's relentless push a few years back to have customers consolidate their assets at their place, even if it wasn't such a good idea.
Good point........

Quote:
When I read magazines written by the industry for the industry, it's hard to detect any effort to show customers how to do for themselves.
Most of them don't. However, they probably think that if the advisor does a really good job of educating, he will work himself/herself out of a job. I personally have found that NOT to be the case.

Quote:
Heck, it's hard to find an advisor who'll lay out the options of American Funds (with all their breakpoints), DFA (with all their slice & dice), Vanguard (indexes), and ETFs (cap gains efficiency). Instead it's mainly about holding customer's hands and reassuring them while growing your own business.
These days, there's a lot of handholding........

My comment on DFA is that you have to "pay to play" with them. They require attendance at a boot camp for a few grand and then you have to put in writing how much business you will do with them, etc. Seems too dictatorial these days.

So, you really think that all FAs should promote Vanguard? If the client wanted to be with Vanguard, they wouldn't be looking for answers from me, they would be calling VG's 800 number........

Clients work with advisors for three main reasons: 1)They don't want to do it themselves, 2)They don't want to learn how to do it themselves, or 3)They want someone to be accountable for their finances, i.e., someone they can blame if things go wrong. It's human nature.......

Quote:
A while back you or Saluki mentioned the FA's typical customer-- an upper-middle-class exec who discovered "Holy crap, 95% of my portfolio is locked up in restricted company stock, company stock options, shares of company stock, and deferred compensation. I've spent all the rest of my paychecks on McMansions & SUVs and I might be unemployed later this year. Can you teach me how to save enough to start one of these new-fangled "IRAs" and maybe learn to spell "diversification"?"
Sounds like some of my clients. Most of my clients are millionaires, but more of the "millionaire next door" than the "McMansion" types.

Quote:
You two probably do good work in your jobs and deservedly sleep well at night. But if you're tempted to defend your industry, then you oughta clean house first.
Well, I doubt that will happen soon. Lobbyists are strong in our industry. They has been discussions about eliminating 12B-1 fees for many years, yet the mutual fund industry is fighting it more than the advisors are.......
__________________
Consult with your own advisor or representative. My thoughts should not be construed as investment advice. Past performance is no guarantee of future results (love that one).......:)


This Thread is USELESS without pics.........:)
FinanceDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2009, 07:43 PM   #160
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
freebird5825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Nowhere, 43N Latitude, NY
Posts: 9,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinanceDude View Post
Not that touchy. I realize this is a DIY place and I am viewed as the scourge of mankind. However, IMHO that doesn't mean that just because you have a portfolio for yourself that anyone can be an FA. Many on here probably think that its easy, but with an 80% attrition rate in the first year I beg to differ.......
Here's my view...
If you need legal advice, you see a lawyer. You don't go to law school.
If you need medical advice, you see a doctor. You don't enroll in pre-med.
So, it follows that if you need financial advice...who ya gonna call?
Seriously, DIY can only go so far.
It is the smart person who recognizes their limits and seeks professional assistance, WHEN they need to.
It is the prudent person who educates themselves BEFORE they go for professional consultation.
Ok, throw the rotten tomatoes...I can take it.
__________________

__________________
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them." - Walt Disney
freebird5825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does anyone know anything about these advisors? nun FIRE and Money 30 11-19-2008 06:45 PM
what financial advisors get you.... not much starboardtack FIRE and Money 5 06-26-2006 02:22 PM
Financial advisors virginia Other topics 2 01-23-2006 08:24 AM
Financial Advisors at COSTCO! Brat FIRE and Money 16 09-26-2005 07:21 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:36 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.