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Iím getting 7-8% on collateralized, relatively short term loans. Can you beat that?
Old 09-01-2018, 08:40 PM   #1
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Iím getting 7-8% on collateralized, relatively short term loans. Can you beat that?

Can you beat that? Serious question as Iíd love to find other ways to get yield. I checked out some of the discussions on the preferred board and you really have to buy some low quality preferreds to get decent yield.

The loans I reference in the subject line are from Peerstreet. The loans are backed by a house that is being renovated and then sold (flipped). The company doing the remodeling puts down 25% equity. That leaves you with a decent cushion when the deals occasionally go bad. Iíve had 2 homes out of approx 50 go into foreclosure. I believe, even on these two, Iíll get my principal and interest back due to the equity cushion.

The loans are generally 6-24 months in length.

Anyways, interested in any recommendations on ways to get yield. I have plenty of stock market exposure and am looking for ways to diversify.
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Old 09-01-2018, 09:01 PM   #2
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If you are looking at something that risky, something like Doubleline Income Solutions (DSL) provides similar yield and is WAY more diversified.
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:38 AM   #3
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"Beat" is hard to define if you go beyond raw percentage.

I get ~6% on a HY bond fund with a lot less risk. Almost 20 years of reliable interest.

If you're just looking at the percentage, no, but I like to consider percentage/risk. There's vehicles paying 6% that beat your 7% with much less risk and seem a lot less complicated. Just wondering if that extra 1% risk is worth it.
IMHO.
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Old 09-02-2018, 05:42 AM   #4
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You could try an oil & gas royalty trust - SBR, PBT, DMLP, SJT, CRP. They're all yielding around 8-9%.
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Old 09-02-2018, 05:50 AM   #5
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Lottery tickets yield much, much higher returns.

A bit more risk though.
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Old 09-02-2018, 06:36 AM   #6
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Not many investments there to choose from. If the site doesn't take off, will it go under?
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:01 PM   #7
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If you are looking at something that risky, something like Doubleline Income Solutions (DSL) provides similar yield and is WAY more diversified.
Thanks. I will check it out. I am familiar with Jeff Gundlach, but have never spent any serious time looking at his funds.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:02 PM   #8
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You could try an oil & gas royalty trust - SBR, PBT, DMLP, SJT, CRP. They're all yielding around 8-9%.
Thank you. I will take a look at these.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:15 PM   #9
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Not many investments there to choose from. If the site doesn't take off, will it go under?
They add 3 to 5 new mortgages every couple days to choose from. Each mortgage is funded within a few days. Iíve been investing there for about two years now and have had no issues. Iíve had about 20 mortgages where the home has sold and the loan paid off. Currently, I have (parts of) about 50 mortgages outstanding.

Since Peerstreet is a relative start up, there is some danger in dealing with the sponsor company. However, there are two things that make me feel a little better about them. First, all of the investments are (supposedly)set up in a trust separate from the sponsor company. Second, the main guy from the Big Short is one of the many investors.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:16 PM   #10
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Lol!
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:44 PM   #11
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They add 3 to 5 new mortgages every couple days to choose from. Each mortgage is funded within a few days. I’ve been investing there for about two years now and have had no issues. I’ve had about 20 mortgages where the home has sold and the loan paid off. Currently, I have (parts of) about 50 mortgages outstanding.

Since Peerstreet is a relative start up, there is some danger in dealing with the sponsor company. However, there are two things that make me feel a little better about them. First, all of the investments are (supposedly)set up in a trust separate from the sponsor company. Second, the main guy from the Big Short is one of the many investors.
Respectfully, it sounds like a lot going on for 8%. Many of us here average 7%-8% (or more) with just simple funds and stocks.

If its only interest or dividends you're looking for, as noted there's quite a few energy stocks doing that with considerably less risk involved.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but their website didn't really motivate me to drop $100K their way. Even when stocks tank, I still have a piece of paper (figuratively) that's worth something from them.

But that's just me.
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Old 09-02-2018, 12:57 PM   #12
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We do funding on individual flips and house projects. We hold the first interest; no partners. We choose pretty local places we can go see - just cruised a couple existing loans last night on our way back from Portland. We've had to foreclose on one and start foreclosure on one and did cash for keys on one and had a RE funding company go POOF! with a year's worth of retirement living money. Make 10-12% + a point or two.
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:29 PM   #13
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S&P 500 is up over 19% over the last year.
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Old 09-02-2018, 05:55 PM   #14
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We do funding on individual flips and house projects. We hold the first interest; no partners. We choose pretty local places we can go see - just cruised a couple existing loans last night on our way back from Portland. We've had to foreclose on one and start foreclosure on one and did cash for keys on one and had a RE funding company go POOF! with a year's worth of retirement living money. Make 10-12% + a point or two.
That is awesome. Can I ask how you got started? Also, how did you find a network of flippers to fund?
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Old 09-02-2018, 06:00 PM   #15
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S&P 500 is up over 19% over the last year.
I’ve been close to 100% stocks for most of my working life, but looking to diversify. I don’t mind some risk, but I don’t want to go through another cycle of down 30-40% which will come at some point. Always does. Thus, looking for some alternatives in a low yield world.
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Old 09-02-2018, 08:26 PM   #16
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That is awesome. Can I ask how you got started? Also, how did you find a network of flippers to fund?
Was hand carrying payments in to a small loan company for the $30k house we were buying - I'd bought it from a neighbor's son after my neighbor passed away. The son sold the loan at a discount! I would have stretched for a discounted amount. Told the man running the loan company I wanted to get on the other side of the loan process. After the loan was paid off we did some small loans; owner of that loan company sold and we went with the new company, making loans they presented to us. The loan companies were getting all kind of fees and 4 points. Hmm. We got our numbers up and visited a group making loans in downtown Portland - put a big chunk with them and they evaporated in about a year, taking our money with them. Hmm.

We continued to make loans through the loan company, but kept seeing the same faces over the years - somewhere in there we just started loaning direct to the borrowers we were familiar with. Feel our risk is reduced because we know the practices of our borrowers. We don't charge as much as we maybe could, so our borrowers come back to us.
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Old 09-02-2018, 08:37 PM   #17
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For the risk, you should target closer to 15%. Itís a business, not a passive investment, no matter how you look at it. Anyone having that much at risk needs a higher return. Iíve owned a business for 22 years and our average return has been 14%. At that rate I still feel like weíve under performed for the amount of risk Iíve taken on.
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Old 09-02-2018, 09:20 PM   #18
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Can you beat that? Serious question as Iíd love to find other ways to get yield. I checked out some of the discussions on the preferred board and you really have to buy some low quality preferreds to get decent yield.

The loans I reference in the subject line are from Peerstreet. The loans are backed by a house that is being renovated and then sold (flipped). The company doing the remodeling puts down 25% equity. That leaves you with a decent cushion when the deals occasionally go bad. Iíve had 2 homes out of approx 50 go into foreclosure. I believe, even on these two, Iíll get my principal and interest back due to the equity cushion.

The loans are generally 6-24 months in length.

Anyways, interested in any recommendations on ways to get yield. I have plenty of stock market exposure and am looking for ways to diversify.
The question isn't 2 out of 50 bad loans in 2017/2018, the question is how many bad loans if things quickly go the other way. Flips/renovations are great while prices are moving up, but .... when prices are moving down.

I'm not saying it isn't a good investment, just wondering if the risks are fully understood here.
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Old 09-02-2018, 10:55 PM   #19
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If you are looking at something that risky, something like Doubleline Income Solutions (DSL) provides similar yield and is WAY more diversified.

I second DSL as a good CEF option. Pimco also has a lot of good debt CEFs if you can buy them at a discount (which is very hard to do).

I also like the etf XMPT which is made up of 70+ municipal bond CEFs. Yield is around 5% which is equivalent to 5 / (1 - .X) where X is your tax bracket.

Example for 25%, you have 5 / .75 = 6.67. So in a 25% tax bracket the 5% municipal bond is the equivalent for a 6.67% completely taxable bond.

For a 39.6% tax bracket 5% tax free is equivalent to 8.28% taxable.
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Old 09-03-2018, 07:50 AM   #20
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I second DSL as a good CEF option. Pimco also has a lot of good debt CEFs if you can buy them at a discount (which is very hard to do).

I also like the etf XMPT which is made up of 70+ municipal bond CEFs. Yield is around 5% which is equivalent to 5 / (1 - .X) where X is your tax bracket.

Example for 25%, you have 5 / .75 = 6.67. So in a 25% tax bracket the 5% municipal bond is the equivalent for a 6.67% completely taxable bond.

For a 39.6% tax bracket 5% tax free is equivalent to 8.28% taxable.
XMPT looks like a A ticket ride. Not for the faint of heart. High expenses, long duration, leverage and junk. To me this would be a classic example of reaching for yield, but under the premise of the OPís question I can see why you would recommend it in this case.
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