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Old 08-24-2015, 07:55 PM   #41
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Had a $88 limit order set for VOT VG medical etf. Triggered early this morning when the initial big drop accrued. When last I looked it was up about 10%. Similar with GIS. Limit order triggered early last I checked it was up about 5%.
Mid cap. Not medical. Spell check thging

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Old 08-24-2015, 09:38 PM   #42
Recycles dryer sheets
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I saw similar numbers for RPG, Guggenheim growth ETF, showing down 30%, recovered! but someone lost and made a lot of money for a brief period. I would have thought the arbitrage computers would never have allowed for such a gap to the individual securities that make up the ETF.


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Old 08-24-2015, 09:50 PM   #43
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It looks like those superduper computers that do high-frequency trading in microseconds are not infallible after all. And some human traders, some on this board here, manage to beat them and make some money.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:17 PM   #44
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Apparently they were - over 1000 minicrashes on ETFs this morning, with halts and reopens. Several including large volume supposedly liquid DVY were 40% down while the underlying stocks were only down 11%. Price discovery was not happening.

Anatomy of '1,000 flash crashes': What went wrong

The Stunning Comparisons Between The "Flash Crash" Of August 24, 2015 And May 6, 2010 | Zero Hedge
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Old 08-25-2015, 02:09 AM   #45
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Sounds like I missed out on a great opportunity there. Congrats for the ones who did seize the moment!

My cash reserves are not available for flash buying (or selling), as a buffer against emotional decision making .. didn't realize that would exclude me from things like this.
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Old 08-25-2015, 07:45 AM   #46
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Price discovery was not happening.
Oh, it was happening on some of our computer screens.

Looks like my trades stuck. First (and probably last) time I make 25+% in one day. Almost 2 months worth of spending. Now to erase the 4 years worth of spending we lost in the last week or two...

Unfortunately (for me) it looks like the market will recover significantly at the open. I was really looking forward to some tax loss harvesting and shifting some $$ around but I might lose some or all of that opportunity today.
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Old 08-25-2015, 07:57 AM   #47
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This is why I have zero problems with HFT and algo trading.

In general, they improve bid/ask spreads, increase volumes (hence reducing or eliminating market impact costs for us small-ish traders), and provide a basic level of liquidity for some thinly traded issues.

And every 5 years, they really really F up bad.

I'm really tempted to put sell orders in for all of my ETFs at 20-30% above yesterday's close just in case something similar happens today. I'd hate the six figure cap gains but somehow I think I could manage it. And there's no wash sale rule on the sell-buy trade (nor am I limited by spousal FINRA regs).
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:10 AM   #48
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Oh, it was happening on some of our computer screens.

Looks like my trades stuck. First (and probably last) time I make 25+% in one day. Almost 2 months worth of spending. Now to erase the 4 years worth of spending we lost in the last week or two...

Unfortunately (for me) it looks like the market will recover significantly at the open. I was really looking forward to some tax loss harvesting and shifting some $$ around but I might lose some or all of that opportunity today.
My trade is there as well.

I bought a few other things yesterday. I intended to buy a bit more, but had to leave unexpectedly and by the time I got back the market was closed.
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:23 AM   #49
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My trade is there as well.

I bought a few other things yesterday. I intended to buy a bit more, but had to leave unexpectedly and by the time I got back the market was closed.
Yep, got a few hundred $k worth of sell orders placed way out of the money. Fingers crossed for another screwy opening.

I really got lucky yesterday. I can't remember the last time I was sitting at my computer staring at tickers exactly at 9:30 am. But DW was working from home so I joined her in the office and just happened to log on to see what the markets were up to. Just a few days ago I accidentally stuck IUSV into my YAhoo portfolio tracker, and that's what tipped me off to something crazy going on (everything's down 3-4%, IUSV down 30%+).

Cascading dominoes of luck.
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From an ultra conservative...
Old 08-25-2015, 08:45 AM   #50
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From an ultra conservative...

Can't get shot for having an opinion, so here's my thinking on the stock market today. Sometimes it's a good thing to see what the minority is thinking.
So: HFT, ETFs, Algorithms... and the Black Box

A Millisecond = One one thousandth of a second.

As well as being the cause of market instability, possibly the single most efficient tool for changing the balance of wealth in the US.

We are led to expect that the stock market is a type of auction, where individuals bid for shares of stock.

Imagine an auction, where the auctioneer controls the sale... the "going, going, gone!" that happens when his head is turned and doesn't see your hand raised to place a higher bid. Then imagine that this "sold" takes place in a millisecond.

Now imagine that instead of people... the transaction is made with competing computers... programmed to buy/sell at a rate of one thousand transactions in a single second.

Now, imagine what can happen in that single second, when bids (trades) are made by computers, designed to work in concert... buying and selling... taking profits in the matter of seconds... and the money leaving the market... not to the person waiting patiently at the computer to see if his bid is confirmed, but to the people who are manipulating the values.

Not readily apparent in the news, but trillions of dollars disappear from the markets, in the matter of hours or days.

"Ah, yes, but the market recovers!"

Well, yes... but where did the money go in the first place? And, more importantly... Where did the money come from to replace the money that disappeared?

So, the next question is... "How do you get in on the first part?"...

Hmm... maybe you're a trader. Maybe you get lucky. Maybe you can beat the "black box".

Or maybe you wait it out. The "market" always comes back. The next question is, "How long does it take for it to come back?"

In 1929, it took until 1936. (some say until 1945)
In 1974, it took 8 yeas to recover.
The average is 2 years.

Buy low, sell high... of course. But who really does that? The greatest profits come from the "buy low" risk takers... What usually happens, though, is that the "sell" come somewhere nearer the bottom, and the "buy" somewhere nearer the top.

Stay the course? Wait? Play the 2 year odds? In a stable world, okay... but where will the price of oil be in two years? When will the "Tech" bubble level off? And if you hang in there for two years, you'll be back where you started.

Where is the SEC and the CFTC in all of this? Historically, when regulation has taken place... how long did it take, and who represented the investing public during the decision making process? After the "Flash Crashes" what changes were made to safeguard future problems?

This may be worth a read:
Black Box Trading: Computers Taking Over Wall Street? - Business Insider
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:33 AM   #51
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I wonder if we'll hear any stories from the other side? Anyone here get taken out with a Stop Loss order on the dip in any of the these ETFs?

I'll say it again, the exception to my 'never say never' guidepost:
NEVER set a stop loss order!




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Old 08-25-2015, 09:40 AM   #52
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And I did not have Internet access yesterday until coming into town after market close. Darn!

It pays to watch the market, even if you don't intend to trade.

If you snooze, you lose. Well, perhaps you do not really lose, but don't win. And I want to win, to scoop up bargains. But I have to be able to see it first.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:57 AM   #53
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Maybe I need to start keeping some excess cash around with open limit buy orders.

Every time these market anomalies happen I'm broke.
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:03 AM   #54
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I have been digging around in the dusty corners of my trading accounts, looking for some more cash to put together. I have a tiny loss in 1000 shares of VXUS I could harvest...that ETF has been pretty horrible since I bought it like 2 years ago? I wish our house was already sold. I would be flush with cash then since it is paid off. I could have made a mint on something like this Ishares glitch.
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:08 AM   #55
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Maxing out your margin account yet, my friend?
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:17 AM   #56
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Maxing out your margin account yet, my friend?
I haven't touched margin, but do you know how incredibly hard it is to look at my Optionshouse account and see that available margin figure (I think it is like $400,000 margin available) when there are bargains like sub $95 Apple? I need the house sold. Then I can have a few hundred k to play with and a few hundred k for living expenses for the next 5 years. Would not have to sell a single stock during a 5 year decline.
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Old 08-25-2015, 10:42 AM   #57
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Maxing out your margin account yet, my friend?
I almost decided to go on margin yesterday to pick up even more of the ishares. Couldn't stomach more than 1 lot of the two ishares etfs I picked up. Didn't want to blow up my ER in case things went sideways.

Luckily DW reminded me of blowing up on margin back in 2000 or so during the dot com bust. $10,000 or so lost, cheap tuition.
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Old 08-25-2015, 11:29 AM   #58
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The most I have gone on margin was one time in 2010, and it was only for 2% of portfolio. I had cash, but it was in places like I-bonds and stable value funds that I did not want to transfer out to cover what should have been a short-term play.

This trade dragged out for a few months. I did make some money, but the margin interest rate at my brokers was high and ate significantly into my profit.

I have not been on margin since, nor before that. I believe in not betting what I am not prepared to lose.
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:08 PM   #59
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Can't get shot for having an opinion, so here's my thinking on the stock market today. Sometimes it's a good thing to see what the minority is thinking.
So: HFT, ETFs, Algorithms... and the Black Box

A Millisecond = One one thousandth of a second.

As well as being the cause of market instability, possibly the single most efficient tool for changing the balance of wealth in the US.
Bumping this, as I watch Fox Business with Mark Cuban ranting on this very point. No holds barred he discussed the many programmed algorithms working in tandem... We don't usually see this open anger. I lost about fifty dollars, but I imagine Mark lost a bit more.

Really fun to watch the spin on this.

Brings the question... "Do you believe that your trading happens in real time, or are the market controls inadequate?"

Where are the trillions of dollars lost in the market going? Do they just disappear?

Just asking.
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Old 08-25-2015, 05:17 PM   #60
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Where are the trillions of dollars lost in the market going? Do they just disappear?
It's not a loss of money, it is a change in value. Just like when the price of a gallon of gasoline declines from $4 to $2.50, there is not any less gasoline.
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