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Old 03-03-2008, 02:49 PM   #21
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Long URL of a Reuters article posted on Fidelity's website.




I must express the sentiment that I'm shocked-- shocked, I say!-- over how Microsoft would do such a thing. You ER'd Intel workers must be gnashing your teeth with despair at how low some of your co-workers/protégés have sunk since your departures. Imagine looking to Microsoft for help making Intel sales numbers. After all, Microsoft could've just offered to buy Yahoo! Intel.

But maybe Intel's not at fault after all:

This is a classic man bites dog story. For everytime Microsoft helped Intel, there is at least 10 times that BillG screamed at Intel execs to do XYZ, if you want to see software in your lifetime that takes advantage of a new chip feature. Intel was forced to cave most of the time as was revealed in the Microsoft antitrust case.

I was rather proud of BillG calling Andy Grove to kill one of my pet projects, although at the time pride wasn't the emotion I was feeling
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Old 03-03-2008, 02:57 PM   #22
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Yeah, but if you're gonna run something other than OSX on a box, why spend the 30-50% extra on a box with contents no different from a well built windows machine?
Very true. It reminds me of a phone call recently. One of my brothers employees bought an Apple for his wife. She works on Windows PC's all day, but wanted the Mac because she didn't want to continue having problems with malware, adware, etc. So the idea for them was great - if they didn't like the Mac they could always install Windows on it and at least get back to what they were used to.

Not to mention if you buy a laptop of comparable quality, reliability and service ratings like a Thinkpad, the Mac isn't a 30-50% premium anymore.
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Old 03-03-2008, 03:54 PM   #23
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sorry CFB.. you & others did get into the OS quality issue, tho', in my feeble defense!

As far as the OP goes, the business model that decouples hardware and OS creates that opening.. the "need" to defraud/deceive. I think CFB's defended that business model. If Apple stuff breaks, you can only blame Apple. Not a whole host of disparate players. Sad also were the multitudes of machine-specific crippled OSs distributed by various PC mfrs. In other areas diversity breeds improvements; here it seemed to breed frustration and chaos. The glitches that come up based on that are for the life of the computer, not just upon first release of a new OS.

Why Visual Studio? Who knows? He must have his reasons. I could, but won't, go into a long tangential discourse about jobs/politics/skillsets here. The h/w has been Acer, emachines, and now some not-cheap no-name box concocted by a local h/w seller. Not great experiences overall, anyway. I'm glad others have fared better.
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:10 PM   #24
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You said VB, not Visual Studio... I'd be curious what features have gone away. I haven't touched VB since I wrote a book on VB.NET 1.0 (and, truthfully, I only dusted off the VB-side of that enough to be able to write). I wasn't aware of any features of VS going away though...

As for machine choices, I've never had problems with Toshiba or Dell. I've never trusted Acer and know plenty of people that have had problems with e-machines. I'm guessing they've gone up in quality lately, though. I've had plenty of problems with custom-built boxes; it's been fun, but I just don't care any more. I get them pre-built from the manufacturer and call it good.
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:55 PM   #25
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My experience with Vista Home has been, thus far, subpar...

What to blame? OS, computer, drivers, ad-ons? All of the above...

What a ficking mess..............
I bought a new computer last april with vista and would have looked a little harder for one with xp....funny thing is internet explorer hangs up on me while firefox works much better Other than that and having to wait a month for updates for my existing printer and scanner, it has been very stable...
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:13 PM   #26
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See, theres the rub...If something breaks on an apple machine its all apple, so they get the shovel in the face. If anything breaks on a windows machine...the hardware made by xyz, the software made by abc, the drivers and add ons made by ghi, or the combination of the bunch...microsoft gets the blame. If Apple had to deal with 30 top platform makers, thousands of add on/driver manufacturers, and 10x the applications...I doubt it'd be any prettier.

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The h/w has been Acer, emachines, and now some not-cheap no-name box concocted by a local h/w seller. Not great experiences overall, anyway. I'm glad others have fared better.
Nothing first tier, in fact mostly el cheapo manufactured machines. No surprise you've had trouble. Some acer laptops are fair to middling (i'm using one right now), but their desktops are cheap. Emachines are junky. Local h/w store "white boxes" are usually overpriced and underfeatured and bought by people uncomfortable with computer technology.

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Originally Posted by clifp View Post
BillG screamed at Intel execs to do
Pretty funny watching a pudgy nerd shrieking at a guy who used to throw molotov cocktails at soviet tanks in hungary, hmm?

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Not to mention if you buy a laptop of comparable quality, reliability and service ratings like a Thinkpad, the Mac isn't a 30-50% premium anymore.
I can buy a pretty solid thinkpad for $1100-1300...a macbook pro runs close to $2k. I can also go to a Dell XPS or Latitude system and get one loaded to the gills with arguably BETTER parts, capabilities and equal build quality for under $1400.

You go to the plain vanilla mac book and you're stuck with a 13" screen and nothing much to write home about vs a Dell Vostro or low end Latitude, either of which can be had on sale for almost half the price.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again although the mac folks got red in the face two paragraphs ago and arent gonna see it...its a good computer with a good operating system. There just isnt any fairy dust in it that makes it worth more or a better value.
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Old 03-03-2008, 08:13 PM   #27
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thinkpads are a joke these days

i have an HP that they gave me at work and cost $1500 new. the works including an HDMI port.

i had some problems with it and went from vista to XP and back to Vista. last time i didn't install most of the HP software and it works a lot better now. Nice thing with HP is they give you real OS disks. not the crappy ones that install all the crapware.
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Old 03-03-2008, 08:55 PM   #28
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There just isnt any fairy dust in it that makes it worth more or a better value.
...except for the fairy dust that has so far kept ME spy/malware/virus-free SO FAR, over decades. Like the credit-card ad says: "Priceless."

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See, theres the rub...If something breaks on an apple machine its all apple, so they get the shovel in the face. If anything breaks on a windows machine...the hardware made by xyz, the software made by abc, the drivers and add ons made by ghi, or the combination of the bunch...microsoft gets the blame. If Apple had to deal with 30 top platform makers, thousands of add on/driver manufacturers, and 10x the applications...I doubt it'd be any prettier.
WE AGREE! .. but Apple didn't choose that route because it cares about its customers (as it has done since even before the PC hegemony was a done deal). Aren't you on a pro-consumer pro-customer-sevice bandwagon? Why would you want to buy a Ford (sorry, Lexus) if you knew that Ford Lexus guaranteed the body, the engine was third-party X's problem, the engine s/w diagnostics company Y's problem, the drive train company Z.. etc.??

You just want to turn the key and GO.

And if it doesn't go, and it doesn't all work together, and the engine doesn't communicate with the drive train, you want to take it up with the Ford Lexus dealer.

If you WANT to build a car from scratch, go ahead. That's what a lot of PC geeks do, God love 'em. But what gets me is why a person who just wants to turn the key and GO would EVER choose, or have chosen, freely, being of sound mind, Wintel.

The best customer service is to not require it in the first place.

---
Marquette: sorry, is Visual Studio not VB? He's having most of the problems with reporting. The short story, as I get it between growls, is that M$ bought out Crystal Reports (so they don't exist any more, nor can you use old versions with the current Visual Studio) and at the same time reduced the native Reporting functionality of Visual Studio (yes, .NET, I think.. I'm not up on all the 'flavors') from its previous incarnation, in what particulars I don't know, but leaving him up the proverbial fecal creek w/r/t reports and printing. Lots of multi-thousand $$$/year 3rd-party solutions, though!! Pay us thousands so you can print a table!!! He's written an accounting app., and obviously needs to print out invoices and balance sheets and so forth. P.S. He needs now to get the latest and greatest Visual Studio upgrade: 560-something euros.. 800+ dollars. MAYBE that will allow him to print some of the DB query results he wants; maybe not.

Sheesh. You can make any kind of DB, you just can't PRINT the f***ng results. He'd be better off with a 20-year-old version of Claris FileMaker or 4D Write or Fox whatever-the-hell-it-was. I've given him all kinds of suggestions like, export data to a text file, then massage it, export to Excel, Word, whatever.. no dice. I naively mentioned PDFs at some previous point and got a look that could positively kill. I'm amazed I'm still here to post.

Bill Gates is ruining my marriage! I want my old husband back!

PCs and printing have always been a PITA. Always, always, always, always, always. Almost 25 years now, and they still don't "get it". Don't even get me started on Word and its creative pagination schemes that vary from machine to machine and print driver to print driver. THESE PEOPLE HAVE ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD and choose to torture us. I'm only out of it since I ER'd (thankfully). In fact, if I had to choose ONE reason why I'm happy not to be working, it's that I don't ever have to deal again with a.) Word and b.) PowerPoint. Ok, that's TWO REASONS.. but they are related, and they are biggies!

--
Al, glad you got a "real" OS w/yr.HP purchase. Since he's always paying so much to Microsoft for licenses.. maybe DH shies away from the premium hardware.
Quote:
Local h/w store "white boxes" are usually overpriced and underfeatured and bought by people uncomfortable with computer technology.
Possible, but the h/w guy here seems more reliable than his analogs in the US, actually. He contracts some programming stuff to DH and they have a certain 'inteso' as they say here. It's not an in-and-out consumer purchase but supposedly one between professional peers, and this was supposed to be a big step up from Acer, etc. I don't even know what the machine issues are, specifically, so I can't shed any light on that here and now.


Too bad the $$ Thinkpads are "a joke" on those who bought them.

Too bad, as Nords' OP points out, the modus operandi of M$ & Companions is to joke around. If you want a serious computer you know where to look.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:02 PM   #29
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sql 2005 has reporting services built in

and CR was bought out by Business Objects and they are big in business intelligence which is why it costs so much money now
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:17 PM   #30
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...except for the fairy dust that has so far kept ME 100% spy/malware/virus-free SO FAR, over decades. Like the credit-card ad says: "Priceless."
Hmm, me too. And I didnt have to pay extra. Heck, my current laptop has a pretty high res 17" screen of good quality, a core 2 duo processor of good speed, plenty of memory and disk, a dvd DL burner and all sorts of other goodies and it only set me back $599. Price that out in a mac. I could have four of these for what one of those goes for.

The only thing thats kept the mac world virus free is a lack of interest on behalf of the average virus writer to take advantage of the multitude of exploits that, like every operating system, OSX is filled with.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:20 PM   #31
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Take a look at Active Reports by Data Dynamics.

Data Dynamics

Each sku he'd probably be interested in has royalty-free licensing, and the pro version allows his end-users to design their own reports.

edit: and, I've never, ever ever had an issue with viruses. Setting up a halfway decent home network is simple, a decent anti-virus is simple, and it's not hard to keep yourself from grabbing files from unknown sources. I haven't had a virus in 15 years. A friend of mine, on the other hand, gets them all the time... he's always in search of codecs, though, and that's likely the source of his problems (well, one of them anyway)

One thing that's interesting... if you're a professional developer, or freelancer of any kind, it's worth the extra $100-$200 to get a quality computer from the start, especially when it's a business expense! I typically charge $70 an hour for freelance dev work. At that rate, any amount of downtime when I need my computer is unacceptable.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:23 PM   #32
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Oh my dear god, its worse than I thought. A similarly configured macbook pro (slightly faster cpu) runs $2800.

Thats about $2200 worth of pixie dust. Plus tax.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:47 PM   #33
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Al bundy.. I mentioned SQL but DH said that requires end-user licenses. That's not in the cards.

I didn't know who CR was bought by.. sorry if I erred. But anyway it's not available to him as before for whatever reason.

Thanks, Marquette, I will pass on that link!

End-users here are not going to want to design reports, tho', believe me.. It's hard to get them to even SEE THE VALUE of accounting s/w a la Quickbooks. He's got clients (a few are actually certified ACCOUNTANTS) that want nothing more than to bypass all the invoicing/payments auto-connections and instead write special entries line-by-line with notes, exactly as if they were doing it by hand. There's invoice A.. but they don't want to use the program to record PAYing invoice A.. they create their own bank movement instead and write a note "I paid part of so & so's invoice". And then of course it's impossible to correlate with any invoice, and near impossible to search on since they write in the notes field whatever the hell they want. They don't want to click on the outstanding entry and say "pay invoice". To say there's a learning curve is a grievous understatement.

What businesses are used to here is, still, throwing all the receipts in a shoebox and handing it to a commercialista (tax accountant) who charges them an arm and a leg to enter it all, massage it, and sort it out at the end of the year. Nobody knows from daily/weekly/monthly sales.. at least at the medium to small business clients he is targeting. It's an uphill slog, even though, if they could print out their own balance sheets and movements, they would save more in doing it themselves after a year or two of what the commercialista charges to do the same thing with much more high-powered s/w. Plus they get to see what's going on in real time (I guess they seem to see this as more of a curse than a blessing?).

---
The laptops are indeed too rich for my blood. I'm tooling along on an old mini <$500. I can throw it in my pocketbook if need be. CFB has the chops to evade viruses with little effort. Others here have reported different experiences. Sure, you can walk the streets safely if you have had special ops training. What about "the rest of us"? People who don't have a computer sci. or engineering bkgd. and may not have the time to struggle and just want to turn the key and GO? I pay someone else to do my oil changes and tuneups, and to prune my trees, too. Paying is not the only issue. (If paying were the issue, you'd have a Ford and not a Lexus, and you'd have saved way more than $2k.)
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:14 PM   #34
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The only thing thats kept the mac world virus free is a lack of interest on behalf of the average virus writer to take advantage of the multitude of exploits that, like every operating system, OSX is filled with.
Well, if that is the only thing that has kept the mac world virus free (your words), it's been pretty effective so far.

With no sign of it changing either. Despite all the vulnerabilities you like to point out.

Wait a minute - you said 'exploits' - you meant 'vulnerabilities' didn't you?

-ERD50
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:27 PM   #35
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CFB has the chops to evade viruses with little effort. Others here have reported different experiences.
Its pretty easy. I dont open up emails with attachments from people I dont know, and I dont go to russian porn sites. I dont use WEP encryption thats been broken for years.

Others seem to do it differently.

I havent even installed a virus scanner in Vista. So far not one single blip.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:30 PM   #36
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Techworld.com - Mac OS X security myth exposed

besides, who wants to take over a mac; odds are the only thing of interest would be cat pictures
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:32 PM   #37
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Well, if that is the only thing that has kept the mac world virus free (your words), it's been pretty effective so far.

With no sign of it changing either. Despite all the vulnerabilities you like to point out.

Wait a minute - you said 'exploits' - you meant 'vulnerabilities' didn't you?

-ERD50
Did you really want to go another 12 rounds with me and end up looking like a blowhard...as usual?

I thought this stuff wasnt "fun" for you any more...

I guess most people looking for security through obscurity could buy a cheap PC and install linux on it. Then they'd get the same level of virus obscurity, have more software to run, and it'd be even cheaper than buying a windows based machine.

And gosh, isnt linux the same thing as OSX anyhow? I mean, you did say that OSX is the same as freebsd, right, and freebsd is just about the same thing as linux. Of course, anyone who actually knows what they're talking about realizes that none of that is correct or true, or even remotely so.

*DING*
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:34 PM   #38
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I have NO cat pictures, I SWEAR. Limited dog pictures.

Plus it's not just viruses and firewalls.. I don't want to mess with drivers and DLLs and incompatible 3rd-party hard disks or printers or CD/DVD drives or video cards or sound cards or any of that. Everything that I have bought for a mac that claims to be mac-compatible has been.. plug and play, for years, not just some recent thing or new continent you guys may have recently 'discovered'. The only hiccups are with the dastardly HP. I avoid HP printers because of their evergreen driver 'issues' and how they make printing so INSANELY complicated. Did I mention that I think ease of printing is important? Unclear on Vista, but if I previously asked DH if he could print something out at x%, the answer was always "no". OKkkaaayyy.

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it'd be even cheaper than buying a windows based machine
Except they'd already have paid for the Windows license anyway.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:38 PM   #39
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Techworld.com - Mac OS X security myth exposed

besides, who wants to take over a mac; odds are the only thing of interest would be cat pictures
Yeah, we've been over this before. Some folks think that by paying extra to the guy in the black suit they get something special.

A virus writer has one thing in mind: how to easily do the most damage or make the most money. So far that hasnt involved breaking into an OS that has a single digit market share and mostly consists of kids and old men.

But gosh, this new Vista thing seems dang near bullet proof. Maybe the ease of virus writing thing will swing in another direction.

On the other hand, maybe I'll just keep buying my windows based notebooks and if one gets infected, I can just throw it away and buy a newer, better one. If I get infected once a year, it'll still take 5 years for me to break even on what would be a very old macbook pro...

Hell, my wifes 17" Dell laptop, my 17" acer laptop, and my firebreathing desktop with a 32" lcd display all together cost less than one 17" mac book pro. Shoot, I could throw in an EEE and still be under the price cap.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:40 PM   #40
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I have NO cat pictures, I SWEAR. Limited dog pictures.

Plus it's not just viruses and firewalls.. I don't want to mess with drivers and DLLs and incompatible 3rd-party hard disks or pringter
I have cat AND dog pictures.

I havent messed with a driver, dll, 3rd party hard disk or printer since the windows 98 days. It either just works or I install a driver disk that comes with the printer...just like you do on a mac.

All y'all mac folks need to stop thinking about windows 98. Didnt you just say I was thinking about stuff from nine years ago?

I do have to admit though. The machine does get a little whacky sometimes after I've installed 100-200 different programs on it...most of which arent available for the mac...
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