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Old 11-21-2017, 07:14 AM   #2761
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Has anyone seen the symbol for Ladenburg's 6.5% notes? I tried the one from SA, but FIDO comes up empty. New issue was 11/14/17.

PS. Nobody else buy until I get my 200 shares under par first. Agreed? Except whoever finds the symbol.
My mistake, these go public today 11/21/17 under LTSL .
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:51 AM   #2762
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Whats the ticker? I cannot find anything about it from what you posted...

I like an 8.2%.... need to put the call money to work when I get it in Dec.... I do not think this will be called


Texas the 8.2% is YTM including cap gain of $75.50 purchase price. Its a 5% $1000 par 1930 issue. Very interesting history from a company that once employed over 30,000 people.
http://www.academia.edu/588461/The_r..._from_the_past
Cusip is 023663AB3.... Due your diligence to see if it fits your needs. $14 million remains from a $50 million original issue. Office Depot has a good balance sheet but faces tough fundamentals. In fact up to recent acquisition they had more cash on balance sheet than actual debt. But they need to figure out a long term strategy.
Per last month after acquisition from Moodys
https://www.moodys.com/research/Mood...-to--PR_374075
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:21 AM   #2763
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Thanks for the tip on American & Foreign Pwr, Mulligan.

I was able to pick up some this morning, bought at $75.95 ( including commission ). But with 13 years of life left at 8% effective YTM, the few extra cents paid is insignificant.

I nominate Mulligan for the lead role of Dr. Indiana Jones, if they ever make a movie called " Raiders of the Lost Bonds "
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:27 PM   #2764
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Thanks for the tip on American & Foreign Pwr, Mulligan.

I was able to pick up some this morning, bought at $75.95 ( including commission ). But with 13 years of life left at 8% effective YTM, the few extra cents paid is insignificant.

I nominate Mulligan for the lead role of Dr. Indiana Jones, if they ever make a movie called " Raiders of the Lost Bonds "

OK... my mistake.... I was thinking pref.... but it is a bond...

Rated B3, so the yield is in the correct range...

Will have to come back when I get my money in Dec.... do not want to sell anything right now for this...



Edit to add.... when looking for this I found that you can buy a certificate of this issue...

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/American-For...-/381176026223
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:39 PM   #2765
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I see that the CLP sisters, CNLPL & CNTHP, are once again inching up after a short time in the doldrums ( just being a teeny bit dramatic ).

CNTHP bid $56.25, CNLPL bid $55.50.

CNLPL XD is December 6, for a payment of about $0.81. Dividend is QDI.
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:46 PM   #2766
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OK... my mistake.... I was thinking pref.... but it is a bond...

Rated B3, so the yield is in the correct range...

Will have to come back when I get my money in Dec.... do not want to sell anything right now for this...



Edit to add.... when looking for this I found that you can buy a certificate of this issue...

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/American-For...-/381176026223


I assume those certificates are the retired bonds. It was an original $50 million dollar bond, it only has $14 million outstanding. I see the same thing with my DMRRP (Dayton and Michigan RR preferred stock) I own. Some were retired many moons ago and are canceled certificates.
Debt ratings are odd little creatures... Frontier last year had a little under 10 Billion in sales, yearly loss of $429 million and 18 billion in debt...Their senior unsecured debt is....B3 now
Office Depot had a bit over $10 billion in sales last year, earned over $500 million in profits and has current total debt near 1 billion after recent acquisition. And its senior unsecured is B3,also....Give me a break, Frontier cant pay their debt off...Both companies are rated B3....The market isnt stupid...That is why Frontiers 10 plus year dated debts are over 12% and OD is 8%. Ratings dont fool the market!
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:47 AM   #2767
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I assume those certificates are the retired bonds. It was an original $50 million dollar bond, it only has $14 million outstanding. I see the same thing with my DMRRP (Dayton and Michigan RR preferred stock) I own. Some were retired many moons ago and are canceled certificates.
Debt ratings are odd little creatures... Frontier last year had a little under 10 Billion in sales, yearly loss of $429 million and 18 billion in debt...Their senior unsecured debt is....B3 now
Office Depot had a bit over $10 billion in sales last year, earned over $500 million in profits and has current total debt near 1 billion after recent acquisition. And its senior unsecured is B3,also....Give me a break, Frontier cant pay their debt off...Both companies are rated B3....The market isnt stupid...That is why Frontiers 10 plus year dated debts are over 12% and OD is 8%. Ratings dont fool the market!

Yea... if you look they are from Boise Cascade....

Here is another link.... can buy either $1,000 or $5,000 certificates...



It is funny.... when I was a corp trustee I had a number of issues with certificates.... never thought to take some for nostalgia.... mine were not issued so that is probably why....

One day I remember a new supervisor of mine coming into my office and asking me about me having inventory of a number of issues... I was the only trustee that had them... everybody else used a different group that kept track of the holders etc... (there was a reason for it, but long story)... So, she asked... 'what prevents you from putting your name on a certificate and getting interest payments?'.... I said 'that would be stupid, anybody could find out that I was getting payments. If I wanted to get money I would put my friends on the certificates.'..... Well, that did not go well with her... it took them maybe 6 months but they eventually moved them to the proper group.... but, funny thing again... I was still fully in charge of all bond transfers.... they just followed what I told them to do...
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:24 AM   #2768
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Yea... if you look they are from Boise Cascade....

Here is another link.... can buy either $1,000 or $5,000 certificates...



It is funny.... when I was a corp trustee I had a number of issues with certificates.... never thought to take some for nostalgia.... mine were not issued so that is probably why....

One day I remember a new supervisor of mine coming into my office and asking me about me having inventory of a number of issues... I was the only trustee that had them... everybody else used a different group that kept track of the holders etc... (there was a reason for it, but long story)... So, she asked... 'what prevents you from putting your name on a certificate and getting interest payments?'.... I said 'that would be stupid, anybody could find out that I was getting payments. If I wanted to get money I would put my friends on the certificates.'..... Well, that did not go well with her... it took them maybe 6 months but they eventually moved them to the proper group.... but, funny thing again... I was still fully in charge of all bond transfers.... they just followed what I told them to do...


I guess you got to see and participate in the transformation that occurred from certificates to electronic digits? Its amazing what people save and sell on ebay. One mans trash is another’s treasure as they say.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:34 AM   #2769
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I guess you got to see and participate in the transformation that occurred from certificates to electronic digits? Its amazing what people save and sell on ebay. One mans trash is another’s treasure as they say.
Actually by the time I was there (and I was only there a few years) it had already changed... but I got some of the old issues and the more difficult ones... all new issues were DTC except for private placements...

I do remember one that was converted to DTC except for a few bonds... they still clipped the coupons.... never knew why they did not just convert..
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:25 PM   #2770
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Actually by the time I was there (and I was only there a few years) it had already changed... but I got some of the old issues and the more difficult ones... all new issues were DTC except for private placements...

I do remember one that was converted to DTC except for a few bonds... they still clipped the coupons.... never knew why they did not just convert..


Wont be too many more years and “clip the coupon” wont have any investing meaning. They will think a coupon to clip for toothpaste or something. I moved into my second coupon clipping. Bought some Ingles Market 5.75% par bonds that mature in 2023 at $98.20. A smidge over 6% YTM. Been steering the ship into some of these now instead of perpetuals.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:15 AM   #2771
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I have been slowly dumping my insurance preferred holdings over the past few weeks. I dumped the last 800 shares of RNR-C today at $25.71. I had 3000 shares of this one and it took several days to fill the sell order. I also dumped the last of my VR-A at 25.82 . I had 4000 shares. I decided to take some nice gains and forgo the dividends next month. My costs were well below par $24.68 for RNR-C and 22.63 for VR-A. I don't want any exposure to offshore re-insurance companies. I also dumped TMK-A at 27.23 which is Texas based but I bought this for $24.20 a while ago.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:27 AM   #2772
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I actually reentered RNR-C last week. 300 at $25.54 and 200 more at $25.64. Dont disagree with you avoiding re ins risk. But I feel this one has its act together unlike Maiden or Amtrust. Capital raises are no problem with them. Plus this is the one and maybe only one (due to its “old age status” ) that is investment grade and cumulative. All new insurance preferreds are not. Very few 6% plus quality rated preferreds out there.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:23 AM   #2773
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Both VR-a and RNR-C are investment grade. MHLD notes and preferred stock were also rated investment grade when I initially bought them in late 2013. But one thing I have learned over the years is when there is any hint of accounting fraud, its run first and ask questions later. It's not re-insurance risk I'm worried about but what's really lurking in the books. There is enough information out there on AFSI to suggest serious fraud. MHLD will be taken down with AFSI. I just don't believe the two are alone. In the case of VR-A. I bought it last November. RNR-C I have had for a while and added more last November. With VR-A I earned 1 year of dividends (5.78% coupon) plus the equivalent of the next two years of dividends in the form of long term capital gains. RNR-C the gain was just over a dollar plus about 2 years of dividend income. It's tough to give up QDI preferred stock in a taxable account, but my gains would be taxed as long term capital gains. Both could be okay but for me not work risking all that capital.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:31 AM   #2774
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Preferred Stock Investing-The Good , The Bad and The In Between

Yes the AmTrust MHLD problems have been lurking for awhile...I never was in AmTrust and am long out of Maiden too. Dont disagree with anything you said, but I perceive RNR to be a better company and they have long been more conservative in how they approach their finances. I am not betting the farm on this either though. Feel fine owning it now, but wont toss in sock drawer.
I have been in and out of RNR-C all the time past several years.
Call risk always keeps RNR-C close to par...Non cumulative RNR-E with a 5.375% par trades almost as high as 6.08% par RNR-C. E’s genesis was a partial call of C back in 2013.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:54 AM   #2775
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The safest ones to play now are large cap financials trading close to par. I in round 3 with COF-P. I buy at $25.10-15 and sell at $25.40. I also own 4000 share of COF-F since August 2015. It's call protected until August 2020. I picked those up for about $24.10. I don't understand why WFC-J hasn't been called yet and why is it trading above $26. It goes exdiv soon and it can be called on 12/15/17
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:29 AM   #2776
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The safest ones to play now are large cap financials trading close to par. I in round 3 with COF-P. I buy at $25.10-15 and sell at $25.40. I also own 4000 share of COF-F since August 2015. It's call protected until August 2020. I picked those up for about $24.10. I don't understand why WFC-J hasn't been called yet and why is it trading above $26. It goes exdiv soon and it can be called on 12/15/17


J started its descent towards par several years ago. It sat right around last divi plus par and only very recently shot up. Very strange. Not worth the risk. It does need 30 day call notice as I checked. They can save almost 300 bps on a call/reissue. That is a lot of savings for a massive issue that it is.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:13 PM   #2777
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J started its descent towards par several years ago. It sat right around last divi plus par and only very recently shot up. Very strange. Not worth the risk. It does need 30 day call notice as I checked. They can save almost 300 bps on a call/reissue. That is a lot of savings for a massive issue that it is.
Probably fund buying. WFC-J is the top holding for a lot of ETFs. Another example why passive preferred ETFs perform poorly.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:18 PM   #2778
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They should have had the call notice already on speed dial a year ago set up for Nov. 15....Very odd...
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:51 PM   #2779
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By the way, why is LANDP down $1 today?
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Old 11-27-2017, 02:02 PM   #2780
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By the way, why is LANDP down $1 today?


I see it at $26 down 6 cents on 150 shares traded...Are you sure you are looking at it correctly?
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