Preferred Stock Investing-The Good , The Bad and The In Between 2015 - 2020

[aja8888]

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Originally Posted by REWahoo What's a "ute"?

The ones I know of are here:

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The Utes have a tribal membership of 2,970 and over half of its membership lives on the Reservation. They operate their own tribal government and oversee approximately 1.3 million acres of trust land. The Utes also operate several businesses including a Super Market, Gas Stations, Bowling Alley, Tribal Feedlot, Uinta River Technologies, Ute Tribal Enterprises LLC and Water Systems. Cattle raising and mining of oil and natural gas is big business on the reservation. Water Systems manager provides water and sewer needs for several communities.

http://www.utetribe.com/

[MooreBonds]

I don't remember who took a fleeting interest in the Toys R Us trust securities....but just to finally put your curiosity to bed - I noticed in my TD Ameritrade account that I had XKE redemeed at $2.2247/share (original par value $10/share). Better than a sharp stick in the eye.....but nowhere near what I was hoping for when I bought it in the 9s or thereabouts. Also, fairly quick action for a bankruptcy proceeding.

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by MooreBonds I don't remember who took a fleeting interest in the Toys R Us trust securities....but just to finally put your curiosity to bed - I noticed in my TD Ameritrade account that I had XKE redemeed at $2.2247/share (original par value $10/share). Better than a sharp stick in the eye.....but nowhere near what I was hoping for when I bought it in the 9s or thereabouts. Also, fairly quick action for a bankruptcy proceeding.

I think only you did, Moorebonds! Lets stick with ones that will actually pay and not go bankrupt. You pull another stunt like this and I am seeking conservatorship control over your assets to make sure you have money when you retire. And I will do this gladly without cost to you or any Ed Jones type fees and costs. [emoji4]
You been laying low lately, must be working hard lately?
Im flirting with Moorebonds type trouble myself. Bought 300 more shares of NSS. This would leave a serious welt on my wallet if they went under. Im gonna keep a wayward on this one and hope they dont call, and start collecting that juicy 8.4% come April.

[MooreBonds]

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Originally Posted by Mulligan I think only you did, Moorebonds! Lets stick with ones that will actually pay and not go bankrupt. You pull another stunt like this and I am seeking conservatorship control over your assets to make sure you have money when you retire. And I will do this gladly without cost to you or any Ed Jones type fees and costs. [emoji4] You been laying low lately, must be working hard lately? Im flirting with Moorebonds type trouble myself. Bought 300 more shares of NSS. This would leave a serious welt on my wallet if they went under. Im gonna keep a wayward on this one and hope they dont call, and start collecting that juicy 8.4% come April.

LOL....been busy with a little crowdfunding real estate deals, as well as trying to wrap up various final details on a remodeling project. Meant to put a few words on that thread, but never got around to it. I did manage to see your post about picking up some MH-A, thanks for mentioning that, since I hadn't noticed it dipped below 25. I snagged 200 with some cash that came from some calls, cost about $24.90. Then saw it drop the next day by another quarter.

Oh, and also came to my senses and sold off my HLM preferred above $34. Made a nice little cap gain of about $1, plus some king-sized dividends for a few months, but crunched the yield to maturity again and didn't find it worth the risk that they end up calling the damn thing early and wiping out $9/share (I think it was only in the high 7% range).

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by MooreBonds LOL....been busy with a little crowdfunding real estate deals, as well as trying to wrap up various final details on a remodeling project. Meant to put a few words on that thread, but never got around to it. I did manage to see your post about picking up some MH-A, thanks for mentioning that, since I hadn't noticed it dipped below 25. I snagged 200 with some cash that came from some calls, cost about $24.90. Then saw it drop the next day by another quarter. Oh, and also came to my senses and sold off my HLM preferred above $34. Made a nice little cap gain of about $1, plus some king-sized dividends for a few months, but crunched the yield to maturity again and didn't find it worth the risk that they end up calling the damn thing early and wiping out $9/share (I think it was only in the high 7% range).

I need to start putting The Bottle away when I start posting my last three trades....GWSVP, MH-A, and more NSS...Ugh! Wait, I did sneak in a little purchase of TY-, but that hardly makes up for the other 3....I never could find out the mystery to HLM and why it never was redeemed.
Hey here is a good one for ya...PCG-A....Trading near $29, for a 6% $25 par...And they suspended the dividend and the preferred was up today...Who in the hell would pay $29 with a 5.24% yield on an issue that has suspended payments? There are only about a million preferreds that type of yield out there that actually will pay the next divi payment.

[MooreBonds]

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Originally Posted by Mulligan I never could find out the mystery to HLM and why it never was redeemed.

From what I could tell, it appeared they were expensing/depreciating the entire face value of the issue somehow on their balance sheets over so many years. My guess is that they might redeem it if/when they reach $0 - but that's just a guess after breezing through their balance sheets for a few mins.

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Originally Posted by Mulligan Hey here is a good one for ya...PCG-A....Trading near $29, for a 6% $25 par...And they suspended the dividend and the preferred was up today...Who in the hell would pay $29 with a 5.24% yield on an issue that has suspended payments? There are only about a million preferreds that type of yield out there that actually will pay the next divi payment.

Well, I'm guessing that if someone is willing to pay for an illiquid preferred that yields 5% just for the trophy aspect of it (cough cough), a 5.24% yield on a company that might be shoring up its finances by suspending the dividend on a cumulative issue might not look so bad after all. Maybe people want to be able to brag about having stock in a utility that might have caused the CA brushfires?

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by MooreBonds I don't remember who took a fleeting interest in the Toys R Us trust securities....but just to finally put your curiosity to bed - I noticed in my TD Ameritrade account that I had XKE redemeed at $2.2247/share (original par value $10/share). Better than a sharp stick in the eye.....but nowhere near what I was hoping for when I bought it in the 9s or thereabouts. Also, fairly quick action for a bankruptcy proceeding.

It was me since I saw them go down so fast...

But, I bet that this was a prepackaged BK... IOW, the people who owned most of the debt all agreed to this prior to them going into BK...

Glad you got some value in the end... as you say, better than nothing...

[Winemaker]

I sold my PNC-P this week for $28.44, a 6% issue I bought 8/13 for $24.51. I can't figure out why it has been so high, but I figured I can pick up something at a better price, better yield.

Mully, you are starting to get in my head...

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by MooreBonds From what I could tell, it appeared they were expensing/depreciating the entire face value of the issue somehow on their balance sheets over so many years. My guess is that they might redeem it if/when they reach $0 - but that's just a guess after breezing through their balance sheets for a few mins. Well, I'm guessing that if someone is willing to pay for an illiquid preferred that yields 5% just for the trophy aspect of it (cough cough), a 5.24% yield on a company that might be shoring up its finances by suspending the dividend on a cumulative issue might not look so bad after all. Maybe people want to be able to brag about having stock in a utility that might have caused the CA brushfires?

Well the trouble is they are not too common. 800,000 shares traded of the A yesterday.....So no antique value there even though it was issued in 1919.

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by Winemaker I sold my PNC-P this week for $28.44, a 6% issue I bought 8/13 for $24.51. I can't figure out why it has been so high, but I figured I can pick up something at a better price, better yield. Mully, you are starting to get in my head...

Well just think, Winemaker, if you start doing some more trading you stay out longer from underneath your wife’s feet at home. So whatcha gonna buy now?

[Winemaker]

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Originally Posted by Mulligan Well just think, Winemaker, if you start doing some more trading you stay out longer from underneath your wife’s feet at home. So whatcha gonna buy now?

I just might delve into some more CBL-D, I think it is way over sold. It was at record low yesterday, but it was just recently issued. I don't think retail is dead, but I think there is over saturation of malls. Look at Subway,the sandwich shop. You can't go 1 mile in any direction and not find one; I think they closed over 900 stores this year. Of course, the Jared creep, didn't help much there.

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by Winemaker I just might delve into some more CBL-D, I think it is way over sold. It was at record low yesterday, but it was just recently issued. I don't think retail is dead, but I think there is over saturation of malls. Look at Subway,the sandwich shop. You can't go 1 mile in any direction and not find one; I think they closed over 900 stores this year. Of course, the Jared creep, didn't help much there.

As a speculative play, I can see that trade. I have looked and looked at it, but cant fully grasp enough to trust. The idiot buffoon Seeking Alpha “experts” run everybody into the ground over this company. Such dolts those writers thinking cash flow is the secret sauce to everything. Even I am not that dumb. Something just isnt right there, though the preferreds could be a great buy. Record retail foreclosures still hanging around, mall rents going down, massive need for facility upgrades. And I dont understand their recourse and non recourse debt situation.
CBL had a perfect example nearby here...They owned a mall worth $270 million in 2007. They turned over the keys to the bank which sold it this year for about $60 million. And this mall was in a nice location and it still got its tail whipped. How many of these type of CBL beatdowns are there hiding in the weeds? Hard to find safe 8% yields out there that is for sure.

[Sunset]

Due to this talk, I looked at CBL, the company shares sure look like a deal at $5.75 with a ~13.94% dividend after they cut the div by 1/4, and I'm thinking what has improved in retail ?

One thing I found odd, was they talked about rebranding from CBL Assoc... to CBL Properties to better reflect what they do. Why did it take them so many years to figure that out, seems pretty obvious and not reassuring in the management.

Of course I'm the dummy who sold CAT much earlier because their div was all their profit

So I know nothing....

[Winemaker]

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Originally Posted by Mulligan As a speculative play, I can see that trade. I have looked and looked at it, but cant fully grasp enough to trust. The idiot buffoon Seeking Alpha “experts” run everybody into the ground over this company. Such dolts those writers thinking cash flow is the secret sauce to everything. Even I am not that dumb. Something just isnt right there, though the preferreds could be a great buy. Record retail foreclosures still hanging around, mall rents going down, massive need for facility upgrades. And I dont understand their recourse and non recourse debt situation. CBL had a perfect example nearby here...They owned a mall worth $270 million in 2007. They turned over the keys to the bank which sold it this year for about $60 million. And this mall was in a nice location and it still got its tail whipped. How many of these type of CBL beatdowns are there hiding in the weeds? Hard to find safe 8% yields out there that is for sure.

As a real estate investor myself, cashflow is important. Although all of mine are profitable, one can still put money in one's pocket, and show a taxable loss. It is also the main factor factor in oil, mining, pipeline, and timber industries.

I can remember back in late '70's while while working on my MBA, the accounting professor taught a business model where one could buy a pickup, chainsaw, a piece of land and make $10,000/year tax free. One would have to spend a lot of time cutting down trees for firewood, but firewood was pretty expensive during the "energy crisis".

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by Sunset Due to this talk, I looked at CBL, the company shares sure look like a deal at $5.75 with a ~13.94% dividend after they cut the div by 1/4, and I'm thinking what has improved in retail ? One thing I found odd, was they talked about rebranding from CBL Assoc... to CBL Properties to better reflect what they do. Why did it take them so many years to figure that out, seems pretty obvious and not reassuring in the management. Of course I'm the dummy who sold CAT much earlier because their div was all their profit So I know nothing....

Sunset, I just dont think there is a right or wrong answer to any stock. It just depends on what the goals, expectations, and risk levels in relation to how much percentage of portfolio one is buying it with...As an overkill scenerio....CBL-D.... Scenerio 1... Buying my standard allotment as part of my higher risk portfolio strategy......Sounds reasonable to me.... Scenario 2.... Backing up the truck and going all in...I need 8% to barely get my monthly bills paid..... Same stock but one strategy is just plain stupid while the other one sounds pragmatic.

From my observations, buying common stock to chase high yield dividends, usually ends up in more tears than chasing it more in preferreds. Though with CBL that is very obvious since the common yield is well above preferred yield (which is considered high yield in and of itself, also)

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by Winemaker As a real estate investor myself, cashflow is important. Although all of mine are profitable, one can still put money in one's pocket, and show a taxable loss. It is also the main factor factor in oil, mining, pipeline, and timber industries. I can remember back in late '70's while while working on my MBA, the accounting professor taught a business model where one could buy a pickup, chainsaw, a piece of land and make $10,000/year tax free. One would have to spend a lot of time cutting down trees for firewood, but firewood was pretty expensive during the "energy crisis".

I agree....I meant they think at looking at FCF that they discovered the meaning of life....It is just one piece of the puzzle. MLP and REIT structure is different than C corp. I am old school with C Corps...Profits matter! The cash flow experts who run the buffalo off the cliff with Frontier are finding out the hard way. I would rather have cash flow negative, high profitability, and A rated debt, than FCF positive, debt to eyeballs that cant possibly be rolled over as no money is being made. That is Frontier...
Hmmm, timber, chainsaw, wood splitter, and truck? No way, I aint hungry enough and my bills are paid up, lol... I would rather collect the 6% QDI from Ameren, lol...

[Texas Proud]

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Originally Posted by Sunset Due to this talk, I looked at CBL, the company shares sure look like a deal at $5.75 with a ~13.94% dividend after they cut the div by 1/4, and I'm thinking what has improved in retail ? One thing I found odd, was they talked about rebranding from CBL Assoc... to CBL Properties to better reflect what they do. Why did it take them so many years to figure that out, seems pretty obvious and not reassuring in the management. Of course I'm the dummy who sold CAT much earlier because their div was all their profit So I know nothing....

They should change it to CBL bitcoin or blockchain and it will skyrocket 500%!!!

[Mulligan]

Well, I suspect my trading is wrapped up for the year after grinding out a few small gains past week and getting into other issues...My focus has been on should be called but havent, adjustables, short end yield curve adjustables and term dated...Looks like 2018 will have these in the starting line up....PPWLO, AILLL, AILNP, MSEXP, CTWSO, NSS, SPLP-T, ALLY-A, GJT, GJO, KYN-F, AHT-D, GWSVP, LANDP, CNIGO, FIISO, and BURCP.

[capjak]

AILLL,BoFIL,CNLPL,CNTHP,GBLIL,KTH,KYNPRF,PFF,WFCPR L,CHSCM for me all in taxable account so may trim down to Qualified divi only in 2018. Retire date moved to probably May 2018

[Mulligan]

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Originally Posted by capjak AILLL,BoFIL,CNLPL,CNTHP,GBLIL,KTH,KYNPRF,PFF,WFCPR L,CHSCM for me all in taxable account so may trim down to Qualified divi only in 2018. Retire date moved to probably May 2018

Cap, remember the tax rates are lowered...Plus it looks like reits get an extra 20% pass through reduction on dividends if held in taxable accounts... My last dollar bracket has been reduced to 24% from 28% so I now have a few taxable issues in my taxable accounts. My taxfree accounts are smaller than my tax free is.