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Preferred Stock Investing-The Good , The Bad and The In Between
Old 04-09-2018, 03:57 PM   #3341
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Preferred Stock Investing-The Good , The Bad and The In Between

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It sure would be interesting to know how illiquid AILLL is.

From the internet, there are about 497,000 shares outstanding. I can't find any info about institutional holdings.
From Marketwatch, it would appear insiders hold a couple hundred thousand shares.

If there was a way to anonymously know how many shares the members of this forum hold, we could get a rough idea of the tightness of the float.

Maybe someone knowledgeable can make a poll ? Any volunteers ?


Coolius, those insider links you looked at are actual common stock issuances, not the preferreds. A few should prices which mirror what the common stock price was...They get common stock awarded to them. Much of those were gift issuances.
I have seen some various preferred funds own a few of these in their fund. But cant really offer a guess as to how much is owned by any of them.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:17 PM   #3342
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Mulligan, I'm pretty sure you're correct. the search hits showed these figures under AILLL, but I would bet that they are not correct.

So, it comes back to the original question - I wonder how big the float really is? Perhaps the majority of AILLL is in strong hands, and thus we can be even more assured that short of a call, the price is not likely to see big declines from its current level of around $26.60 $26.70?
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:30 PM   #3343
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Bob the divi has already been suspended...Whenever bonds trade 50 cents on the dollar IRS can view this as actual equity not debt...And they have long dated bonds that are trading around there. But the leverage is so huge a slight improvement can give a ray of light to commons but not change material finances in a positive way for the bonds. Anything can happen here... Out of my personal comfort zone...A massive debt laden company with constant declining revenue and customers in a cut throat segment is just not my comfort zone.
FTR dividend suspended, but I was meaning that dividend suspended on PYI, I'm not seeing that dividend on PYI has been suspended, or has it?

I get what you are saying though, this wouldn't be something I'd usually consider.
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Old 04-09-2018, 04:58 PM   #3344
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FTR dividend suspended, but I was meaning that dividend suspended on PYI, I'm not seeing that dividend on PYI has been suspended, or has it?



I get what you are saying though, this wouldn't be something I'd usually consider.


Bob, they cant suspend the interest payment to PIY, without going into bankruptcy...PIY is for all purposes the 2045 maturity bond.. These subordinated bonds are held in trust...The certificates (PIY) lay claim to the 2045 bonds held in trust. So the worth of PIY is the actual bonds. Those bonds last I saw last week were trading 51 cents on the dollar. Dont know about today though. PIY only owns part of the total outstanding 2045 bonds. There are a bunch that trade on their own.
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Old 04-09-2018, 05:03 PM   #3345
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Mulligan, I'm pretty sure you're correct. the search hits showed these figures under AILLL, but I would bet that they are not correct.

So, it comes back to the original question - I wonder how big the float really is? Perhaps the majority of AILLL is in strong hands, and thus we can be even more assured that short of a call, the price is not likely to see big declines from its current level of around $26.60 $26.70?


It will drop again...It dropped 60 cents today...But to put in prospective I bought them less than a week ago at 26.69 and ALSO captured the 42 cent divi, too...It went exD Friday. It always seems to drop in $26.30-40 range. But the question is will you be one of the few that get any or get jumped a penny all the time.
It just gets harder to buy at a reasonable price more often. The float amount is roughly about the same as CNLPL, but has more shares due to its $25 par, as opposed to $50 par.
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Old 04-09-2018, 05:11 PM   #3346
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Bob, they cant suspend the interest payment to PIY, without going into bankruptcy...PIY is for all purposes the 2045 maturity bond.. These subordinated bonds are held in trust...The certificates (PIY) lay claim to the 2045 bonds held in trust. So the worth of PIY is the actual bonds. Those bonds last I saw last week were trading 51 cents on the dollar. Dont know about today though. PIY only owns part of the total outstanding 2045 bonds. There are a bunch that trade on their own.
Got it, I saw that they were backed, but didn't know what the value of those securities were. There must have been some major drop in the value of those today. I'll keep watching this on the sideline. Thanks
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Old 04-09-2018, 05:17 PM   #3347
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Got it, I saw that they were backed, but didn't know what the value of those securities were. There must have been some major drop in the value of those today. I'll keep watching this on the sideline. Thanks


To compliment the matter, the bonds held in trust were not bought at par, but under par some time later after bonds issuance. Thus the higher yield for PIY is higher than the par yield of the actual bonds...So you need to account for that before determining whether PIY is trading under or over value of the actual bonds.
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Old 04-11-2018, 08:26 AM   #3348
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SSW-E made another move up today to $25. I'm in at a shade over $24. I may make a Mulligan steak dinner trade today.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:21 AM   #3349
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Wonder if today's momentary dip in CNLPL was captured by one of our posters?

Went down to $54.26 on 400 shares, within 10 minutes it shot back up to $56.01.

If anyone from this board got them at $54.26, congratulations!
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Preferred Stock Investing-The Good , The Bad and The In Between
Old 04-13-2018, 10:27 AM   #3350
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Preferred Stock Investing-The Good , The Bad and The In Between

Not me, but I made a possible 17 cent loss trade....I went in on 600 shares of WFC-J at 25.67.... Will know in 2 weeks if it gets called at 25.50... Heck any of them could drop 17 cents in one day anyways... Worth a shot to see if that 8% stays outstanding a divi or two more.
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:36 AM   #3351
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Not me, but I made a possible 17 cent loss trade....I went in on 600 shares of WFC-J at 25.67.... Will know in 2 weeks if it gets called at 25.50... Heck any of them could drop 17 cents in one day anyways... Worth a shot to see if that 8% stays outstanding a divi or two more.

17 cents per share over 600 shares is only $102.00. I'm sure you spend more than that on a good steak dinner, so even if it does happen, consider that you saved yourself some unwanted cholesterol and unsaturated fat.

I was actually contemplating buying more WFC-J, following pretty much the logic you just described. Already bought 400 at $25.70 last week.

Something is keeping those evil, conspiring, scheming WFC bankers from calling - anyone with a functional brain can see that it's a no-brainer to save a 8% drain. Why haven't they called it yet? I think there's something that is staying their hand.
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:20 PM   #3352
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17 cents per share over 600 shares is only $102.00. I'm sure you spend more than that on a good steak dinner, so even if it does happen, consider that you saved yourself some unwanted cholesterol and unsaturated fat.

I was actually contemplating buying more WFC-J, following pretty much the logic you just described. Already bought 400 at $25.70 last week.

Something is keeping those evil, conspiring, scheming WFC bankers from calling - anyone with a functional brain can see that it's a no-brainer to save a 8% drain. Why haven't they called it yet? I think there's something that is staying their hand.


Hey Coolius, I can use it to offset a capital gain...That will bring my losses well under a hundo spot!
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:35 PM   #3353
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Snagged 500 shares of CTWSP at $16.25 (par $16) and goes exD later this week at 22.5 cents. Also got 99 shares of CtWSO at $19.95 (par $21). They will be merging with San Jose Water by years end. Company already disclosed these tiny old floats will be called by then. So buying in essence short term duration QDI preferreds...A nice place to hide some money short term.
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Old 04-17-2018, 04:42 PM   #3354
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ALLY-A jumped over $26.50 so I jettisoned the other half. Overall picked up an interest payment plus 50 cent cap gain owning these 2000 shares for about 3 months. That was pretty easy...3 payments above par and rising Libor make this a get out of dodge trade... Took advantage of RILYL dip late in day to snag 600 at $25.28. Have a 1000 of these now. Have another issue in the cross hair, but it wouldnt quite come to me today....Maybe tomorrow.
Tossed 10k into safe keeping today. A secondary remnant 8 month CD was laying for the taking at 2.25% so I bought it.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:15 AM   #3355
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AILLL made quite a jump today, up to $27.69.

Now way too rich for me to consider adding more. My target add price is in the low to mid $26.

Still watching.
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Old 04-22-2018, 02:17 PM   #3356
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ALLY-A jumped over $26.50 so I jettisoned the other half. Overall picked up an interest payment plus 50 cent cap gain owning these 2000 shares for about 3 months. That was pretty easy...3 payments above par and rising Libor make this a get out of dodge trade... Took advantage of RILYL dip late in day to snag 600 at $25.28. Have a 1000 of these now. Have another issue in the cross hair, but it wouldnt quite come to me today....Maybe tomorrow.
Tossed 10k into safe keeping today. A secondary remnant 8 month CD was laying for the taking at 2.25% so I bought it.
I go on vacay and get away from it all and come back to seeing ALLY-A way up... wonder what's up. Hoping to see it open at $26.55 tomorrow so I can get my sell order in. Now to figure out what to do with the proceeds short term, wait for the dip as opportunity to get back in....
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Preferred Stock Investing-The Good , The Bad and The In Between
Old 04-22-2018, 02:33 PM   #3357
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I go on vacay and get away from it all and come back to seeing ALLY-A way up... wonder what's up. Hoping to see it open at $26.55 tomorrow so I can get my sell order in. Now to figure out what to do with the proceeds short term, wait for the dip as opportunity to get back in....


Bob, market just thinks it will survive yet again. The cost of capital for ALLY to own this is getting very high. I just cant risk owning three divis above par. I rolled half my proceeds into MORE RILYL this week when it dropped to $25.28 earlier this past week. Then I rolled most of other part into BGCA. Bought a couple hundred at 25.80 when it went a few days without trading and I lost the Mexican Standoff. Then a floodgate opened up Thursday and I bought a 1000 at 25.41. Its past call 8.125% BBB- paper. Last traded at $25.52 Friday. The note 4 months ago got shifted from BGC to newly spun off subsidiary (BGC still retains voting control) Newmark. They both are investment grade rated companies. Im gambling they didnt go to effort to move the note to Newmark 4 months ago, just to redeem it. Would make little sense to me. So I am really only risking time loss next 7 weeks before payment, as I am in averaged at breakeven, plus the next interest payment in June.
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Old 04-22-2018, 06:57 PM   #3358
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You guys make my head spin more than 3 bottles of wine do/does/could......
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Old 04-22-2018, 07:03 PM   #3359
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You guys make my head spin more than 3 bottles of wine do/does/could......


I split a bottle yesterday, with GF at winery, but none today! It just isnt as fun to buy and hold everything. Besides my brain needs the research workout to stay somewhat sharp. And its fun to whip the PFF benchmark every year...Its down 2% YTD, while I am plus 5.1% so far this year. Gotta keep grinding higher despite income headwinds!
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Old 04-22-2018, 08:00 PM   #3360
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Bob, market just thinks it will survive yet again. The cost of capital for ALLY to own this is getting very high. I just cant risk owning three divis above par. I rolled half my proceeds into MORE RILYL this week when it dropped to $25.28 earlier this past week. Then I rolled most of other part into BGCA. Bought a couple hundred at 25.80 when it went a few days without trading and I lost the Mexican Standoff. Then a floodgate opened up Thursday and I bought a 1000 at 25.41. Its past call 8.125% BBB- paper. Last traded at $25.52 Friday. The note 4 months ago got shifted from BGC to newly spun off subsidiary (BGC still retains voting control) Newmark. They both are investment grade rated companies. Im gambling they didnt go to effort to move the note to Newmark 4 months ago, just to redeem it. Would make little sense to me. So I am really only risking time loss next 7 weeks before payment, as I am in averaged at breakeven, plus the next interest payment in June.
I'm thinking a call on ALLY-A is not really likely. But at $26.50+ that's pretty high based on past trend. It has bobbed around at $26 and lower so may be worth removing the risk of call, pocketing the gain and waiting to see what happens.

I bought 1,000 RILYZ before exD date, so probably won't look at RILYL. I had bought 500 of RILYG and then got back out after div was paid as it was just some short term money that I flipped into a common (AMZN) to take advantage of the drop that occurred with all the Trump tweets, that already had a nice bump, thanks Potus....

And have 1,000 of NSS, so risk tolerance to get more is thin. Will take a peak at BGCA but thin trade of shares may cause me to sit out of that one.
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