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Old 06-24-2016, 07:07 AM   #841
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What do you gurus expect today? I have a couple of limit orders in on Preferreds. Do you think that prices will actually increase, as rates will stay low even longer, or is there a possibility that prices will fall based on perceptions of the impacts of world economic turmoil?
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:26 AM   #842
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I would suggest one keep an open mind, this is not a major panic at all it is an orderly panic and in general most of the talking is about what a great buy point this is. Andrew Sorkin on CNBC on one segment talked about how he personally thought this was going to be a big economic mistake and then the next segment said he thought this fall is a great buy point. In general the interest rates are less likely to be increased by Central banks so preferred should gain in price in general, some partially convertible will have price pressures if the underlying stocks drop.
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:57 AM   #843
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You have in WFC-L a perpetual bond paying 6 percent but yet with a favorable 15% tax rate, long term the cap is 1300 on price if WFC were to ever take off and soar and that is the buyout price so under 1300 you get to keep the 6 percent more or less. In the present interest rate enviroment it is difficult to get a high quality corporation paying a dividend at such a rate. I am shocked it is not over 1300
I agree. Put in a buy order for a piddly 2 shares at $1250 this morning. No action. Just decided to bite the bullet and move it up to hit the ask at $1258. Filled....at $1245!

Funny how my GTC order at $1250 sits there for 20 mins with nothing...then the millisecond I bump up my bid to equal the ask at $1258, it suddenly gets filled at $1245!?! Don't get it....
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:42 AM   #844
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It does seem odd, my only guess would be that changing the price caused the order to be sent to a different "place" where they had a sell order sitting.
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Old 06-24-2016, 10:24 AM   #845
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I bought back MH-PC, which I had sold last week, for a small gain round-trip.

As expected, little to zero movement in our Ute Preferreds. No panicky sellers dumping shares, for sure. That;s good, shows they are in strong hands.

A trifle disappointed that BGLEN did not move whatsoever - I was hoping this plus the call scare would convince nervous folks to dump. Was ready to scoop some up at $101 or less. Apparently BGLEN is also in strong hands.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:25 PM   #846
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I bought back MH-PC, which I had sold last week, for a small gain round-trip.

As expected, little to zero movement in our Ute Preferreds. No panicky sellers dumping shares, for sure. That;s good, shows they are in strong hands.

A trifle disappointed that BGLEN did not move whatsoever - I was hoping this plus the call scare would convince nervous folks to dump. Was ready to scoop some up at $101 or less. Apparently BGLEN is also in strong hands.

Heck, it was trading up yesterday.... so I put in a sell order at 105 hoping to sell a few.... then buy back at $101 when it drops again...


So far, no takers...
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:56 PM   #847
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Guys, this is why I am in what I own... A total snoozefest...In fact I have made money today...When you buy safe illiquids you keep the idiots out, the fund managers who have to sell, and the "hot and cold" money flippers... The last outpost left of the "Widows and Orphans" securities... I have 5 issues that have had a CUMULATIVE TOTAL amount of 34 shares traded... Boring day...


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Old 06-24-2016, 02:09 PM   #848
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Well, I did buy something.... 300 shares of PFK... Punishment for buying 500 shares of PVTBP yesterday and day before. Although it has made me over $250 in past 2 days, I like "balance".


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Old 06-24-2016, 02:15 PM   #849
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Well, I did buy something.... 300 shares of PFK... Punishment for buying 500 shares of PVTBP yesterday and day before. Although it has made me over $250 in past 2 days, I like "balance".

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For a floating rate issue, how about C-N?

It's not rated like PFK, but isn't C "too big to fail?"

The divi is quite a bit fatter than PFK.
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Old 06-24-2016, 02:50 PM   #850
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Personally, I do not buy everything based on yield alone, thus why I got a 1000 shares of CTWSO a few weeks back... I have my fill of banks...No more... I have 3 TRUPs already. The key here on PFK for me, is safety and more important it is a mandatory call in 2018, but not callable until then either.....This is a very safe infield single.


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Old 06-24-2016, 04:02 PM   #851
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I'm trying to figure out OSBCP.

Quantum Online says it was 2.75 million shares at $10. Coupon is $0.195 per quarter, implying a quarterly interest payment of $536,250. OSBC's quarterly report says they paid $1,084,000 interest on junior subordinated debentures.

I don't see any other junior subordinated issues on Quantum.

Someone please enlighten me.
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Old 06-24-2016, 04:07 PM   #852
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I'm trying to figure out OSBCP.



Quantum Online says it was 2.75 million shares at $10. Coupon is $0.195 per quarter, implying a quarterly interest payment of $536,250. OSBC's quarterly report says they paid $1,084,000 interest on junior subordinated debentures.



I don't see any other junior subordinated issues on Quantum.



Someone please enlighten me.


They have a separate "private issue" that is not tradable...Unbeknownst to most people, only 25% of all preferreds issued are available to retail investors like us..The others go directly to institutions or people like Warren Buffet who always gets great deals on preferreds with higher rates than we get.
Another perfect example. I found last week two BEAUTIFUL 7 5/8% investment grade utility preferreds on the books of Hawaiian Electric.
Could find no trades of them and they were issued in 1993... Big $50 million dollar issues...Coolius went and dig legwork for me and called brokers to find them...Nothing anywhere...Private placements...


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Old 06-24-2016, 04:36 PM   #853
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For a floating rate issue, how about C-N?



It's not rated like PFK, but isn't C "too big to fail?"



The divi is quite a bit fatter than PFK.


Slow I forgot other reason...This is the only INFLATION indexed issue out there I can find. Not Libor. I doubt this one to be a real interest to anyone...Just a safety play that will yield me some money...Now if Prudential would issue an exact same issue with a 10 year call date, I would gladly dump some serious money into an issue like that.. I doubt a company would do that though. Since I own no bonds or commons, I tend to spread risk among various types, various risks of call and that coincides with the yield it currently carries. But I do not have much diversity in industry...My utility preferreds range from 4.88% (HAWEL) to 7.15% (AILNP). Banks I tend to stretch a bit in yield and go through the debt of the companies with the TRUPs.


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Old 06-24-2016, 05:51 PM   #854
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They have a separate "private issue" that is not tradable...Unbeknownst to most people, only 25% of all preferreds issued are available to retail investors like us..The others go directly to institutions or people like Warren Buffet who always gets great deals on preferreds with higher rates than we get.
Another perfect example. I found last week two BEAUTIFUL 7 5/8% investment grade utility preferreds on the books of Hawaiian Electric.
Could find no trades of them and they were issued in 1993... Big $50 million dollar issues...Coolius went and dig legwork for me and called brokers to find them...Nothing anywhere...Private placements...


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Well, to be fair, there are a lot of private placements of all kind of securities and bonds... they are cheaper to issue and are a quick way for a company to get funding...

To buy these securities, you need to be a sophisticated investor... this is not Warren Buffet rich, but from the link you need $2.5 mill... (it used to be $1 mill 16 years ago)....

Sophisticated Investor Definition | Investopedia
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:38 PM   #855
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Well, to be fair, there are a lot of private placements of all kind of securities and bonds... they are cheaper to issue and are a quick way for a company to get funding...

To buy these securities, you need to be a sophisticated investor... this is not Warren Buffet rich, but from the link you need $2.5 mill... (it used to be $1 mill 16 years ago)....

Sophisticated Investor Definition | Investopedia


Well I am excluded from all angles then... But Buffet gets to arrange terms on his doing because he has the accessible capital they need (and we are talking hundreds of millions, not 2.5 million) He has frequently bragged in the past (and rightfully so) on like a 10% Bank America preferred and an 8% Dupont issue... He also gets certain exclusive terms such as payment before the regular preferreds and dictate call ability terms, or convertible to common shares if he desires.


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Old 06-24-2016, 08:41 PM   #856
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Well I am excluded from all angles then... But Buffet gets to arrange terms on his doing because he has the accessible capital they need (and we are talking hundreds of millions, not 2.5 million) He has frequently bragged in the past (and rightfully so) on like a 10% Bank America preferred and an 8% Dupont issue... He also gets certain exclusive terms such as payment before the regular preferreds and dictate call ability terms, or convertible to common shares if he desires.


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Oh yea, don't get me wrong.... Buffet can dictate terms to some companies that need financing but cannot get it any other way... and very favorable to him... these are not ever traded.... but this is not the norm....

I was trustee on a number of bond issues that were private placements... they did trade, but not as often as the ones that are available to the general public... sometimes an investment bank would buy the whole issue and then sell it to their best clients.... they would make a market in that issue if they were the only investment bank...
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Old 06-24-2016, 09:02 PM   #857
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Now this is only what I have read and going through financial reports, such as OSBCP where Slow wanted to know where the extra money was going to on Trust preferreds. I certainly am no expert. Now, I have read a few institutional prospectus's that have said "no market will be available", but did imply one could be created later (presumably not by them).
There is a Southern Company preferred with a slightly higher yield I have tried to snag, before. Never a bid or ask, but shares trade. I have put 1000 share bids on the issues at selling price, but they have been ignored. I look at trades and they usually are 20,000-50,000 blocks. This is an example of what you referenced..Ticker symbol is GLFQP.
Goto Parent Company's Record (SO)
Notes: This Preference Stock will not be listed on any securities exchange or on any automated dealer quotation system.
IPO - 10/17/2007 - 450,000 Shares @ $100.00/share. Link to IPO Prospectus
Market Value $ 45 Million

Click for current GLFQP price quote from the PINK SHEETS


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Old 06-25-2016, 10:54 AM   #858
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Now this is only what I have read and going through financial reports, such as OSBCP where Slow wanted to know where the extra money was going to on Trust preferreds. I certainly am no expert. Now, I have read a few institutional prospectus's that have said "no market will be available", but did imply one could be created later (presumably not by them).
There is a Southern Company preferred with a slightly higher yield I have tried to snag, before. Never a bid or ask, but shares trade. I have put 1000 share bids on the issues at selling price, but they have been ignored. I look at trades and they usually are 20,000-50,000 blocks. This is an example of what you referenced..Ticker symbol is GLFQP.
Goto Parent Company's Record (SO)
Notes: This Preference Stock will not be listed on any securities exchange or on any automated dealer quotation system.
IPO - 10/17/2007 - 450,000 Shares @ $100.00/share. Link to IPO Prospectus
Market Value $ 45 Million

Click for current GLFQP price quote from the PINK SHEETS


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I would have to check some other issues, but I think this is not limited... I cannot see any text limiting who can buy the securities.... and the first sentence in the IPO is... not sure if this means anything, but I will go with yes until I see some evidence that I am wrong...
This is a public offering by Gulf Power Company
I would contact these people and see what you can do if you want to buy... they can tell you where to go to buy....
Transfer Agent and Registrar

Unless otherwise indicated in the applicable Prospectus Supplement, the transfer agent for the Class A Preferred Stock will be Southern Company Services, Inc., 30 Ivan Allen Jr. Blvd., N.W., Atlanta, Georgia 30308, which will also serve as the registrar.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:04 AM   #859
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Last trade was 20,000 share in April...I highly suspect this has moved to the "Grey Market". A notch below the Pink Sheets. There is never a bid or ask on issue. Grey Market issues do not have them. There are no "market makers" on Grey Market issues... I learned a lot from a recent Gray Market purchase when I secured the last of my 1000 shares of CTWSO... You really have to get a broker eager to work for you to find where any outstanding issues are located. If you just put a bid in online you may never get a hit as they just send it to their market. Grey Market issues do not get "passed around" to find best price or availability. So you could put a bid in a week prior to me and I could still actually get them at a lower price without you getting a sniff if my bid is by chance routed to an area that actually has an inventory or sell from an individual.


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Old 06-27-2016, 02:13 PM   #860
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Well I assume if you are into the the safe illiquid preferreds you had another boring snoozefest day if not a profitable one like me... I made money on both of these past two "crash days". Not particularly worried about that...Just the fact I am in mostly high quality and that with the bonus yield provides continues to side step any market downdrafts the past few years... Bought a few hundred more of PFK at market low... A safe hedge play... Bought 100 of a Cincinnati Bell preferred at $48.91 today... More of a yield chase, though company financials are improving and focus on debt reduction to clean up balance sheet. Feel good on this riskier below par play that was issued in the late 1990's. And what the heck...My thousands of AILLL shares wanted to adopt a couple hundred more to join the huge family, so I gave in and bought... Who knows...Maybe by when I am 100 years old I will own the entire issue myself.


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