Mulligan
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
- Joined
- May 3, 2009
- Messages
- 9,343
Oh dear, Mulligan. I think you just showed me a can of worms. I feel o have no choice but to open it.
Baby Bonds? A search shows these are formally called Exchange Traded Debts and are senior to Preferred Stocks in terms of payback precedence. Otherwise, they seem very similar. Is this correct? It sounds like you treat them the same as preferred stocks.
I tried to see how well they correlate to the equities market, but couldn't find anything. Can you, or some other savvy investor, point me in the right direction? Any other opinions and observations would also be appreciated.
Cooch, I am generalizing here, but for most "baby bonds" they are the lowest of the low bonds. So in reality there really is very little difference between a true preferred stock and a baby bond, except taxing structure. In fact the term "preferreds" is generally loosened up to not only include the original 15% perpetual QDI that many companies used to issue (Exxon, IBM, GE), but baby bonds, trust preferreds (buying certificates of ownership to bonds held in a trust), and REIT preferreds.
I do feel better owning baby bonds in a company over true preferreds that are non cumulative though. But other than that, owning a baby bond over a preferred in bankruptcy court would probably be inconsequential in receiving anything....More than likely pennies to nothing. People do buy distressed preferreds all the time for cap appreciation knowing they could go to zero. I am not suited for such endeavours and tend to buy from companies that are showing no financial stress.
Preferreds dont have a strong correlation to equities, but it is really hard to quantify them all under same roof. But in general.... long term treasury yield raises will knock prices of preferreds down. Especially the higher quality lower yielding ones. Economic recessions can put the whammy to the riskier preferreds all while causing the safer preferreds to appreciate in price.
For the safer issues, it simply becomes a math problem. If say 10 year treasury was at 2% and goes to 3%. And a preferred was 5% par $25. It is going to have to drop almost $4 just to get to a 6% yield if needed...Ouch...That is why I fought so hard to stay above 6% in my perpetuals as they have been relatively unfazed by recent yield changes in long end.