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Old 09-24-2007, 11:35 AM   #21
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Do I believe what they are telling me? Yes....I do believe it. You CAN make money in the stock market and with options , but you HAVE to be educated. Not very many people are willing to do this. They aren't willing to take the time to learn...they are willing to shell out the money.... SO that eliminates the majority of people out there. And you have to be reasonably intelligent to understand everything. It gets pretty deep. Like anything in life, it takes commitment and perseverence. Not many out there willing to do this... everyone wants the easy road....

So you mean the 2.5 years I spent in business school, 3 years working on getting my CFA charter, and 10 years of related experience is the easy way? Why didn't you tell me in the first place?!
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Old 09-24-2007, 11:41 AM   #22
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Okay, we bit. Here is what we discovered at Investools Seminar.

PROS: The first week I made 2 trades and made $1600. Not too bad. So yes, this system really does work.

CONS: They want to upsell MORE education. ... And the education is EXPENSIVE. They wanted me to go into debt on a credit card to purchase more education. "You can earn money while you are learning and help to pay off your card."
OK, so if this system is so great, make money with what you know now, and if you feel good about it pay for further education through your profits. Why go into debt? I mean, $1600 in two trades. You are going to be rolling in dough!!!

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You CAN make money in the stock market and with options , but you HAVE to be educated.
Disagree entirely. The stock market tends to go up. A monkey and a dart board has a better than 50/50 chance of making money in the stock market. IF he paid a lot of money for that dart board though, that's going to make it tough to come out ahead.

-ERD50
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:37 PM   #23
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Education

Have to disagree right back at you. The stock market is not for throwing darts at picks. You have to have some knowledge behind you to help minimize the risks. Any Joe out there can say, "Hey, I like Starbucks! Think I will buy their stock!" And so they buy based on their love affair with product lines instead of looking at all the analysis behind the stock. That's what most people do and then they lose their shirts.

It does take education. And when I was talking about the "easy way", Brewer, I was talking about the people who want to have the picks handed to them on a silver platter without undestanding anything about what they are doing. Everyone wants free money without having to put in some effort to get it. So how is YOUR education working for you?!
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:41 PM   #24
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Faith --

Yes, the InvesTools program does show you how to read the technical signals of stocks moving up and down and yes, if you are paying close attention you can make some money. But you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned their emphasis on option trading. As I noted in my original post, I even went to an InvesTools annual conference in Las Vegas and if you think the pitch was strong at your two day training -- well, let's just say that options were the big sell in Nevada! (Please be warned that options trading is NOT for everyone...you can make $$, but you can lose even more than you expected!)

I think the InvesTools training was a good place to learn some of the fundamentals of trading stocks -- but the cost is way too high. All of the information presented in their training is available on the web (e.g., MACD, moving averages, etc.) And, if you want to learn more about options trading -- without paying InvesTools the $2,500 or so -- check out the Chicago Board Options Exchange website (CBOE.com) for lots of FREE tutorials.

And, hang around this forum for awhile. The education here is exceptional!

Good luck.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:48 PM   #25
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It does take education. And when I was talking about the "easy way", Brewer, I was talking about the people who want to have the picks handed to them on a silver platter without undestanding anything about what they are doing. Everyone wants free money without having to put in some effort to get it. So how is YOUR education working for you?!
I believe so-called "technical analysis" is something akin to voodoo or illegal drug use (via seond-hand needles). YMMV. Hope you got your $2k worth.

My education is doing fine for me, thanks. I may be able to retire by 40, 45 by the outside.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:03 PM   #26
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Have to disagree right back at you. The stock market is not for throwing darts at picks.
Disagree if you wish, but I was taking your statement at face value. I'm not saying that it is a good idea to just throw darts, but monkeys/darts can and DO beat the market about half the time. Some magazine (or WSJ?) used to do this from time to time. It's common sense, the market goes up on average, so a random selection of the components of the market will go up (on average also).


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You have to have some knowledge behind you to help minimize the risks. Any Joe out there can say, "Hey, I like Starbucks! Think I will buy their stock!" And so they buy based on their love affair with product lines instead of looking at all the analysis behind the stock.
Agreed, but how much of the market is driven by the average investor versus index funds, mutual funds and pension funds? In most cases, you are not 'betting' against Joe, you are betting against the collective knowledge of the market. That is a lot of money out there, and if an algorithm and a few indicators could take advantage of it, well, there are people out there with the resources and computers to take advantage of that far more efficiently than someone armed with a few days knowledge from a seminar.

Simple question: Do they show performance numbers in the same way that a mutual fund must? That could be an isolated, audited account, starting at date X with Y dollars in it. Traded following nothing but their rules, and how did it do against the market? And you really need this over a time frame that includes both up and down markets. Making money on one or the other is no indicator of success.

I have always found this level of transparency lacking in these seminars. That raises red flags for me.

Even your statement that you made $1600 on two trades is a big yellow flag. You did not mention how much money was at risk (% performance) and what did the equivalent risk 'market' do over that same time frame? Ignoring those fundamentals is a common mistake I see people make after attending one of these seminars.

-ERD50
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:11 PM   #27
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I believe so-called "technical analysis" is something akin to voodoo or illegal drug use (via seond-hand needles). YMMV. Hope you got your $2k worth.

My education is doing fine for me, thanks. I may be able to retire by 40, 45 by the outside.
As another long time investor in individual stocks, I agree. Investing in quality, well-managed
companies with consistently rising dividends and earnings has allowed me to retire (although
not until 48 ) on the dividend stream, with plenty of cushion. I have never seen a well-done
academic study which indicates that any form of technical analysis works, in spite of the huge
amount of data available for free or cheaply. I have seen many examples of data mining which
purported to do so.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:38 PM   #28
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The bottom line of my original post before I was pounced on.....is that Investools IS a valid teaching system and people DO make money by using their education system. Is is too expensive ABSOLUTELY!! I think there are other ways out there to learn about options so I don't believe I will be paying them for that part.

You can knock the technical analysis till the cows come home...but it doesn't make the people who use it WRONG as opposed to YOUR way.

I will take my $1600, thank you, and go and buy half of my kid's braces. And the money my husband is making right now in HIS trading account will give us a grand retirement in 20 years.

And I won't tell you of the 2 awesome stocks I purchased this morning that have me up $1500 right now. Guess I might go and cash out and help pay for those braces...Not bad for a 5 hour trade.

(Darn that technical analysis~)

Happy trading!!
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:57 PM   #29
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Based on your posts thus far, I think "Faith" is an appropriate moniker.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:02 PM   #30
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Simple question: Do they show performance numbers in the same way that a mutual fund must?
-ERD50
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... before I was pounced on.....
I guess the answer to my question is... "NO"?

Sorry if you feel 'pounced on', but stand back and take a look at your posts. You are bragging about all this fast money made with a paid-for system, but nothing to back it up other than a few successful trades. You are ignoring a lot of history.

How can you predict 20 years of success based on a few trades? Sorry, I'm not buying that. You shouldn't either.

People here are not that easily impressed. They have seen it all before, some of us have experienced it all before.

Lots of people go into the casino and have some fast wins, maybe they convince themselves it was due to their 'system'. How many can do it regularly?

Good luck, but I suggest you add in a healthy dose of skepticism to your system.

I'm glad you paid for your kid's braces, I'd hate to see you lose his lunch money next week. Sincerely.

-ERD50
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:25 PM   #31
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(So why are they teaching the STOCKS classes) The instructor told us that he flies all over doing 2-day seminars and he makes $70,000.
Question asked and answered.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:03 PM   #32
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I am not saying that I will never lose on a trade. But the proof is in the pudding. I'll take what I earn to the bank, thank you.


I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, so please don't talk down to me. (you're a man, right?) I probably have more college education that you do anyway. Plus I have been trading for quite some time and have done quite well with Peter Leeds teachings as well as a few others. I just found Investools to be quite helpful. That was why I posted originally...to give the pros and cons of it.

I have to laugh at this end thinking you are trying to pat me on the head like I am some little ignorant waif or something. Geeezzz..... The condescending attitudes of some people....


Mutual Funds?? Oh my. That's the dark ages. Have fun with your mutual funds......

Thanks guys, I am out of here.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:06 PM   #33
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I know these threads are bad for my health, but I just can't help it.

Wouldn't one expect that a company that is supposed to teach individuals how to make money, would, ummm, be making money?


From yahoo finance. Sure are a lot of negative numbers in there. I wonder why they don't just invest their money the way they tell their clients to? They should be able to pay off that debt in no time, eh?

-ERD50 (PS: they could put it in some old dark ages mutual fund, and do better than that! Oh my!)

INVESTools, Inc. (SWIM)

SWIM: Key Statistics for INVESTOOLS INC - Yahoo! Finance


Profit Margin (ttm): -16.13%
Operating Margin (ttm): -10.34%

Management Effectiveness
Return on Assets (ttm): -4.77%
Return on Equity (ttm): -115.91%
EBITDA (ttm): -9.51M
Net Income Avl to Common (ttm): -34.95M
Diluted EPS (ttm): -0.66

Balance Sheet
Total Cash (mrq): 33.92M
Total Debt (mrq): 123.12M
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:07 PM   #34
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I am not saying that I will never lose on a trade. But the proof is in the pudding. I'll take what I earn to the bank, thank you.


I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, so please don't talk down to me. (you're a man, right?) I probably have more college education that you do anyway. Plus I have been trading for quite some time and have done quite well with Peter Leeds teachings as well as a few others. I just found Investools to be quite helpful. That was why I posted originally...to give the pros and cons of it.

I have to laugh at this end thinking you are trying to pat me on the head like I am some little ignorant waif or something. Geeezzz..... The condescending attitudes of some people....


Mutual Funds?? Oh my. That's the dark ages. Have fun with your mutual funds......

Thanks guys, I am out of here.
I think the point cycling investor is trying to make is that the seminar guy almost certainly makes his money doing seminars rather than trading.

I'm just laughing at you.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:22 PM   #35
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Plus I have been trading for quite some time and have done quite well with Peter Leeds teachings as well as a few others.
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They wanted me to go into debt on a credit card to purchase more education.
So you have been doing quite well for quite some time, but a few grand for a seminar would drive you into credit card debt :confused:


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Thanks guys, I am out of here.
Too bad, you have the most to benefit from the people here. And if this system really works, we'd love to hear to about it. But to evaluate something, we need performance numbers (not anecdotes), like those stodgy old mutual funds supply.

-ERD50
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:23 PM   #36
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mmmmm.....pudding.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:24 PM   #37
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mmmmm.....pudding.
?
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:31 PM   #38
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Faith said the proof is in the pudding...like Homer Simpson, I get a little distracted by some food and drink words.
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Old 09-24-2007, 04:10 PM   #39
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I always laugh at the "systems" that are for sale on late night TV. Think about it... really think... follow the money. If somebody has a system that really works, why are they selling it to you?

So where are they making their money? From the "system" or from you buying their system? If they make their money from you buying the system, ya gotta question the system.

If there is a system that actually works, understand if enough people use the system it will no longer work. It will begin to return exactly what the market returns.

Easy to understand with big enough numbers. Say one person is using the system, and making 10% more than "the market". Then 10,000 people start doing it, and are making 10% more... Now EVERYBODY does it, can they still make 10% more? impossible. Its more likely the system will break down and return -10% of the market instead.

So can you be one of the first 10,000 people in the system? Doubtful, more likely you will be the otherside that will get the -10%. Mathematical systems that analyze stocks based on models work really well until they work really bad. The trick is to figure out when it is going bad and stop... which is basically impossible until its to late.

I've played with modeling these types of things as a hobby for years. I've had my share of algorithims that have made money and lost money. I finally decided you just can't tell when your model is going to break down and fail... in some massive way.

So if you truely had a system that worked and made x% more than the market, would you sell it? or would you make billions. Well, I'd make billions.. then I'd give it away to my friends

So if somebody is selling their system, then it probably doesn't work any better than betting at vegas. The seller is the house, and the house always wins. The buyer is betting, and sometimes they win, usually they lose. What everybody remembers is the people who won big, we all try to forget the losers in the system.

Good luck,
-d.
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Old 09-24-2007, 04:12 PM   #40
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So you mean the 2.5 years I spent in business school, 3 years working on getting my CFA charter, and 10 years of related experience is the easy way? Why didn't you tell me in the first place?!
You are so 'old school'.... you need to use the new metrics



Wait till the gal losses her shirt... then she might think differently...
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