Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-22-2015, 07:17 PM   #41
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc View Post
Why is no one blaming unachievable (at least with reasonable cost and performance) standards set by EPA and California? Why do we pay more for diesel than gasoline; the opposite of Europe? Why can we always find a good turbo diesel in Europe that gets great gas mileage while at the same time those cars aren't sold in USA?

I am not saying VW is not without the greatest blame; but the government needs to share the blame.

Marc
I think you are right about this government blame business. Think how much cheaper food would be if food producers didn't have to follow FDA regulations. All the money we as consumers could save!
__________________

__________________
ejman is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-22-2015, 07:28 PM   #42
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Following the nice weather
Posts: 6,430
I don't have any articles to back me up, but I remember over the last decade or so VW was making a lot of noise about becoming the largest car company in the world. And they did it, just recently. I suspect this cheat was a part of that drive.

We've got a VW Beetle TDI that we love. It's a 2002, so it's not part of this problem. We've been spending a lot of time researching it's eventual replacement, and were pretty firmly in the VW TDI camp again. We loved the combination of mpg, performance, and environmental friendliness. After this betrayal we won't be looking at VW again, probably for at least a decade. Even if they stay in business after the fallout, their loyal customer base is gone.

We're now leaning toward the Mazda 3. Everybody we know that has one says they get much higher mileage than what's on the sticker. If anybody knows anything bad about them I'd be interested.
__________________

__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Will Rogers, or maybe Sam Clemens
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 07:34 PM   #43
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by ejman View Post
I think you are right about this government blame business. Think how much cheaper food would be if food producers didn't have to follow FDA regulations. All the money we as consumers could save!
Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. No one is saying that these cars are unfit to drive and every owner has been able to calculate his own effective gas mileage. What this is about is 40x more pollution. I have wanted to get a diesel here ever since I lived in Japan and Belgium where they were common. I really liked the Audi A2 hatch in Europe but it was never offered here. I think VW might disappear (ala Enron and Arthur Andersen) due to their extreme fraud; however, I think it also might be end of diesel passenger cars in USA, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post

We're now leaning toward the Mazda 3. Everybody we know that has one says they get much higher mileage than what's on the sticker. If anybody knows anything bad about them I'd be interested.
I have a Mazda CX-7 (since replaced in lineup by CX-5) that has same engine as Mazda 3. I love my Mazada, and I really love the Mazda 3 too, just a little small for hauling stuff around.

Marc
__________________
Marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 07:43 PM   #44
Dryer sheet aficionado
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 38
In summer 2014 I was down to buying the diesel Passat or a Mazda 6. So glad now that I bought the Mazda. The Passat was fun to drive, but my co-workers who are mechanics talked me out of the purchase as they convinced me that German vehicles are too expensive to maintain. I need to thank them. Those cars are now unsellable at any reasonable price.
__________________
beanctr88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 07:52 PM   #45
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanctr88 View Post
Those cars are now unsellable at any reasonable price.
I think the first lawsuits, and settlements, will be for "diminished value," the same reasoning as settlements for accidents. Of course, that is all pre-supposing that the government lets the cars stay on the road with the amount of emissions they are actually emitting.
__________________
Marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 07:58 PM   #46
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ExFlyBoy5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,977
I have a good friend that owns an auto shop that specializes in only VW and Audi cars. When I sent him the original notice of violation on Friday, he was up in arms that it was because of onerous government regulations. Since the weekend has passed, he's now singing another tune. He feels quite violated by the folks at VW.

In all honesty, I hope this sinks them for good. It should send a good message to other corporations who are contemplating fraud on such a grand scale.

Sent from my mobile device so please excuse grammatical errors.
__________________
Founder and Head Lounger @ The Life of Leisure Institute
Retired in 2014 at the Ripe Age of 40.
ExFlyBoy5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 08:07 PM   #47
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
travelover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,896
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyBoy5 View Post
............ It should send a good message to other corporations who are contemplating fraud on such a grand scale..............
Naw, the personality traits needed to get to be a top exec dictate that you feel that you are the smartest guy in the room and such recklessness will be repeated ad infinitum.
__________________
Yes, I have achieved work / life balance.
travelover is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 08:53 PM   #48
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc View Post
I think VW might disappear (ala Enron and Arthur Andersen) due to their extreme fraud; however, I think it also might be end of diesel passenger cars in USA, too.
I seriously doubt VW will disappear as they make a lot of non-diesel cars and trucks. Also, the diesel problem is limited to certain models and years. It may be the end of diesel passenger cars in the U.S. after the next round of emissions tightening for NOx. Watch what's in store for gasoline engines here in a few years as EPA will be focusing on particulate emissions for those engines. You will see NOx traps, filters, possibly DEF for NOx reduction making the gassers as complicated as the diesels for emission control.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc View Post
I think the first lawsuits, and settlements, will be for "diminished value," the same reasoning as settlements for accidents. Of course, that is all pre-supposing that the government lets the cars stay on the road with the amount of emissions they are actually emitting.
EPA has already stated publicly the subject cars are OK to stay on the road.

VW will supply a "fix" that will most likely work for the cars that have Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) emissions control (2014 - 2015 Passats) which would be increasing the DEF treatment cycle. The older cars are not using SCR and there may not be an easy fix for those cars. Those may be bought back by VW and the owner's compensated. This is the thinking here in the U.S. (TDI Club members). This is speculation right now.
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 10:16 PM   #49
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Lakewood90712's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,316
If prices for these used VW diesels are really headed to the cellar , I will be looking to pick one up, being the cheap ass I am. I have no doubt VW will come up with a compliance / retrofit strategy.
__________________
Lakewood90712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 10:56 PM   #50
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
If prices for these used VW diesels are really headed to the cellar , I will be looking to pick one up, being the cheap ass I am. I have no doubt VW will come up with a compliance / retrofit strategy.
Strangely enough, when VW had trouble meeting Tier II Bin 5 emission standards in 2007 - 2008 and did not sell a TDI those years, the price of older TDI's went up, not down.

There may be panic sellers of the 2009 - 2015 TDI's, but the owners that don't get them re-flashed with the coming "fix" (that will effectively de-tune the performance), will probably see their cars value stay high.

I'm keeping my 2014 Passat that gets almost 50 MPG on the highway and 42+ around town.
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 11:23 PM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
harley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Following the nice weather
Posts: 6,430
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakewood90712 View Post
If prices for these used VW diesels are really headed to the cellar , I will be looking to pick one up, being the cheap ass I am. I have no doubt VW will come up with a compliance / retrofit strategy.
Don't be hard on yourself. You're not cheap.
__________________
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - Will Rogers, or maybe Sam Clemens
DW and I - FIREd at 50 (7/06), living off assets
harley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 11:42 PM   #52
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
Strangely enough, when VW had trouble meeting Tier II Bin 5 emission standards in 2007 - 2008 and did not sell a TDI those years, the price of older TDI's went up, not down.

There may be panic sellers of the 2009 - 2015 TDI's, but the owners that don't get them re-flashed with the coming "fix" (that will effectively de-tune the performance), will probably see their cars value stay high.

I'm keeping my 2014 Passat that gets almost 50 MPG on the highway and 42+ around town.

Since this is a known problem, I would bet that the states that do emission testing will require that the fix be done in order to pass.... if I were in state legislature that is what I would propose...


Heck, if I could, I would make the shop doing the testing actually test to make sure that the fix was done and not rely on a sticker showing it was done... there is enough computing power now a day to make that an easy check...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2015, 11:54 PM   #53
Moderator Emeritus
aja8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 7,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
Since this is a known problem, I would bet that the states that do emission testing will require that the fix be done in order to pass.... if I were in state legislature that is what I would propose...


Heck, if I could, I would make the shop doing the testing actually test to make sure that the fix was done and not rely on a sticker showing it was done... there is enough computing power now a day to make that an easy check...
In Texas, and a lot of other states, emission testing for diesels is not required for the annual inspection process. Here, (Texas) they just conduct a $14 safety check. A good thought, though.

I suppose there are too many diesel class vehicles (trucks) that are exempt from EPA emission standards to justify expensive test equipment that is not the same as for gas engines.

This all may change in the future.
__________________
......."Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face." -- philosopher Mike Tyson.
aja8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2015, 12:19 AM   #54
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
In Texas, and a lot of other states, emission testing for diesels is not required for the annual inspection process. Here, (Texas) they just conduct a $14 safety check. A good thought, though.

I suppose there are too many diesel class vehicles (trucks) that are exempt from EPA emission standards to justify expensive test equipment that is not the same as for gas engines.

This all may change in the future.

Wow... they test my engine.... but they use the onboard computer to do so...

I just looked.... I do not see an exemption for the diesel.... do they not have the OBDII?


TxDPS - FAQs: OBDII Emissions Testing
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2015, 01:44 AM   #55
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Utrecht
Posts: 2,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc View Post
Why do we pay more for diesel than gasoline; the opposite of Europe? Why can we always find a good turbo diesel in Europe that gets great gas mileage while at the same time those cars aren't sold in USA?
Those two are related: the answer is taxation, both relative (diesel vs. gasoline) as absolute (Europe has much higher taxes on fuel, so better mileage has a bigger impact on total cost).
__________________
Totoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2015, 02:22 AM   #56
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Western Canada
Posts: 393
I just wonder how they could keep it secret for so long. There must be more than "3" people who program the computers on said cars. I've worked on embedded systems in the past (although few and far between). Most were fairly small but I suspect an ECM doesn't have much code. Why did it take this long. Surely, if they didn't pay off the code-monkeys, the blackmail might have started. If not the code-monkeys, the spec writers. There had to be at least 100 people who knew what was going on.

OOC, since I'm retired, I asked DS who writes embedded code for such varied things as cable TV switching equipment, GPS locating devices (included in every new Peterbuilt truck) and a few other things. His opinion was that it he was programming an ECM, he would have had to know he was breaking the rules if he knew the rules.

But it nothing else, it provides a reason to pay more for "fine German engineering".
__________________
I'm not crazy. Honest, the judge had me tested.
Rick_Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2015, 07:11 AM   #57
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Utrecht
Posts: 2,213
Reminds me of the saying:

Quote:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!
__________________
Totoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2015, 07:29 AM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Head View Post
I just wonder how they could keep it secret for so long. There must be more than "3" people who program the computers on said cars. I've worked on embedded systems in the past (although few and far between). Most were fairly small but I suspect an ECM doesn't have much code. Why did it take this long. Surely, if they didn't pay off the code-monkeys, the blackmail might have started. If not the code-monkeys, the spec writers. There had to be at least 100 people who knew what was going on.

OOC, since I'm retired, I asked DS who writes embedded code for such varied things as cable TV switching equipment, GPS locating devices (included in every new Peterbuilt truck) and a few other things. His opinion was that it he was programming an ECM, he would have had to know he was breaking the rules if he knew the rules.

But it nothing else, it provides a reason to pay more for "fine German engineering".


You also have to put in the realm of possibilities that the code was outsourced to a Chinese company and those code writers just did what they were told and might not have known what was happening...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2015, 08:04 AM   #59
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
timo2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rio Rancho
Posts: 1,438
This really isn't a life or death issue, except maybe for stockholders. No car explosions, ignitions turning off, unintended accelerations, and so on. I have one of the Golfs in this category. It's not like they are 'coal rollers'. Since I'm not planning on selling the vehicle, I'll just hang out and see what happens. I expect the software fix may affect performance, but so what.

It does seem there is a curse to being the number one automobile company. Toyota, GM, and VW all have had that title and all took a hard fall.
__________________
"We live the lives we lead because of the thoughts we think" Michael O’Neill
timo2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2015, 08:06 AM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,891
Quote:
Originally Posted by harley View Post
I don't have any articles to back me up, but I remember over the last decade or so VW was making a lot of noise about becoming the largest car company in the world. And they did it, just recently. I suspect this cheat was a part of that drive.

We've got a VW Beetle TDI that we love. It's a 2002, so it's not part of this problem. We've been spending a lot of time researching it's eventual replacement, and were pretty firmly in the VW TDI camp again. We loved the combination of mpg, performance, and environmental friendliness. After this betrayal we won't be looking at VW again, probably for at least a decade. Even if they stay in business after the fallout, their loyal customer base is gone.

We're now leaning toward the Mazda 3. Everybody we know that has one says they get much higher mileage than what's on the sticker. If anybody knows anything bad about them I'd be interested.
Will be interesting to see if after the fallout, VW tries to make a turnround as the most honest auto company around to win back loyalty. Similar to GM after the faulty ignition switches on their Cobalt. I've never owned a VW or GM, but would consider a GM in the future as I liked the way GM's CEO Mary Barra went about have a recall after another in an attempt to transform GM into honest and safe car company.
__________________

__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thank goodness now we know exactly when WHEE ends! Midpack FIRE and Money 20 05-11-2012 11:49 AM
Just checking in for the Whee-o-meter audreyh1 FIRE and Money 23 05-02-2011 07:02 PM
Record Dow! Whee! W2R FIRE and Money 277 11-12-2007 05:25 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:56 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.