Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-10-2019, 09:37 AM   #2421
Moderator Emeritus
Ronstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A little ways southwest of Chicago
Posts: 10,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Also, the earlier post from Ronstar on fuel taxes missed the $0.184 of Federal taxes. But if you add that to the average weighted state tax, you are a bit lower overall, but close at ~ $0.49/gallon.

-ERD50

Thanks - I was looking at it mainly from a state perspective, wondering when Illinois will jump in the EV tax game, and to what extent. But the $0.184 federal tax you mention tells me that the fed could eventually get in the EV tax game as well.

This said, Iím not upset that EVís are avoiding road taxes. (Iím for cleaner energy). But I would be upset if my gas tax was increased to compensate for the loss of gas tax revenue due to an increase in EV numbers.
__________________

__________________
The wilderness is calling and I must go.
Ronstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 02-10-2019, 09:42 AM   #2422
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronstar View Post
... I would be upset if my gas tax was increased to compensate for the loss of gas tax revenue due to an increase in EV numbers.
Eh, the money has to come from somewhere. You expect it to grow on trees? Like many people seem to think?
__________________

__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 10:10 AM   #2423
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 20,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
How low can one's electricity consumption be? Let's just look at what it costs for warm showers.

A gallon of water weighs 8.35 lbs. A 50-gal water heater contains 418 lbs of water. A BTU is the heat to raise 1 lb of water up 1 deg F. It takes 20,900 BTU to raise one tankful from 70F to 120F.

These BTUs are the same as 6.125 kWh. At a reasonable cost of $0.12/kWh, it costs $0.735 just to heat that water. In California, electricity often costs 2x that much. I am surprised not more of Californians take sponge bath.

How many tanks of hot water a family uses a month?
Well, he mentioned monthly gas bills of $9~$11. But these all seem low. Maybe CA is different, but our basic connection charges with zero usage are close to that. My lowest bills in summer, water heat (new efficient water heater with damper control) and cooking only, 2 people who are conservative with resources, still come out above $20/month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronstar View Post
... This said, Iím not upset that EVís are avoiding road taxes. (Iím for cleaner energy). ...
I'm for cleaner energy as well, but as we've discussed before, EVs may not be much cleaner, if at all (especially after considering battery production/salvage), over a modern hybrid.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 10:32 AM   #2424
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
... our basic connection charges with zero usage are close to that. My lowest bills in summer, water heat (new efficient water heater with damper control) and cooking only, 2 people who are conservative with resources, still come out above $20/month...
I do not have handy the detailed utility bill at my 2nd home, but the lowest bill when we are not even there is $23, with only the refrigerator running. Water heater and lights are turned off.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 12:32 PM   #2425
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobandsherry View Post
As I look at rates for Southern Cali I see minimum rates of 10 cents/kWh, more like 15-20 cents/kWh. Perhaps you are using solar or some other alternate source for electricity?

Have to ask as there has to be something you aren't being transparent about as, if my math is right, the cost to charge a 75 kWh Tesla battery would be $11-15 (before any other taxes/fees/charges). That should be good for about 275 miles. So if you drive 750 miles in a month the cost to recharge your EV would be what your total electric bill is.

So what's in that secret sauce?
Last natural gas bill was 13.47. It does rise a couple bucks in the winter due to the water heater.

Nope, no solar. Bill says .72 basic charge, delivery charge 11.10, 25.92 generation charge, .07 state tax. .12 per kWh.

The electric company sends out a notice once a month, comparing you to all neighbors and efficient neighbors. Before I bought the EV's, I was always in the top 10% of efficient users and miles ahead of normal users. With both electric cars, I'm still around 50 percentile of efficient users. Anyone near LA will get this notice and be familiar with what I'm referring to.

There are two Tesla owners on my block, otherwise everyone else is just powering their household on the above comparisons.

I just left Target a while ago. Paid 40% less for some things by pointing out some facts about sales to the cashier. It didn't qualify for the sale, but I got my 40% off. I've stunned friends and acquaintances by getting 50% off at Pavillions (Vons) supermarket pretty much every time I go. Not on everything, just select things. I only purchase those items I can get reduced. Normal stuff is bought at Trader Joes, where I admit my techniques don't work.

One thing I recommend is to always make friends with the cashiers.
Mr. Tightwad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 12:38 PM   #2426
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Rianne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Champaign
Posts: 1,187
Just when I thought it was over, there it is...Tesla.
__________________
"If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.
Rianne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 12:57 PM   #2427
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 20,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad View Post
.... Paid 40% less for some things by pointing out some facts about sales to the cashier. It didn't qualify for the sale, but I got my 40% off. I've stunned friends and acquaintances by getting 50% off at Pavillions (Vons) supermarket pretty much every time I go. Not on everything, just select things. I only purchase those items I can get reduced. ....
Not sure what this has to do with Tesla? Still don't know what point you were trying to make.

Were you able to get TSLA at 50% off retail? Now that might be something.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 04:01 PM   #2428
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Utrecht
Posts: 2,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Well, he mentioned monthly gas bills of $9~$11. But these all seem low. Maybe CA is different, but our basic connection charges with zero usage are close to that. My lowest bills in summer, water heat (new efficient water heater with damper control) and cooking only, 2 people who are conservative with resources, still come out above $20/month.
I have negative connection charges after factoring in my cashback (imagine my surprise when I got that offer). Variable cost is $6 in electricity, $6 in gas a month. I use roughly <300 kWh a year and <100 m3.

This is in Europe, not really known for low utility bills.
Totoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 04:26 PM   #2429
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Well, he mentioned monthly gas bills of $9~$11. But these all seem low. Maybe CA is different, but our basic connection charges with zero usage are close to that. My lowest bills in summer, water heat (new efficient water heater with damper control) and cooking only, 2 people who are conservative with resources, still come out above $20/month.
-ERD50
Our family of 4 paid only $6-$7/month for the natural gas used to heat water.

Until the gas company added a $10/month facility charge.
ncbill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 06:27 PM   #2430
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 22,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by Totoro View Post
I have negative connection charges after factoring in my cashback (imagine my surprise when I got that offer). Variable cost is $6 in electricity, $6 in gas a month. I use roughly <300 kWh a year and <100 m3.

This is in Europe, not really known for low utility bills.
Less than 1 kWh/day! Wow! How is that possible?

I still have not wired up my solar array/battery storage to the home electric panel, and still burning up the collected power using an extension cord to run two electric heaters inside the home. Just check the meters, and I obtained 18 kWh today. About 3/5 of that is burned off, and the remaining 2/5 goes into the battery to run one 400W electric heater through the night.

How does 18 kWh compare to what I use?

I have two refrigerators. The main one which we open a lot during the day draws 4.8 kWh/day. The auxiliary one in the utility room draws 1.6kWh/day.

Our total daily consumption varies from a minimum of 16 kWh/day to a max of 100 kWh/day. Total annual consumption is 16,300 kWh/year, or 45 kWh/day average.

By the way, the 18 kWh I collect today, if used to charge an EV, would be good for 54 miles of driving.

That power is from 20 solar panels with the nameplate rating of 5.5 kW maximum. Will see how much better it will get, come the summer months when the sun is higher, and the day is longer.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 08:00 PM   #2431
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad View Post
Last natural gas bill was 13.47. It does rise a couple bucks in the winter due to the water heater.

Nope, no solar. Bill says .72 basic charge, delivery charge 11.10, 25.92 generation charge, .07 state tax. .12 per kWh.
You should write a book, if my math is correct that's 216 kWh used. If just two "fill ups" for your EV that's 150 kWh, that's only about 500 miles a month. But that leaves only 66 kWh for everything else in your house. So def you should write a book on how to live on such little electricity.

But back to Tesla, with that little use not sure why you went for EV except just for the fun of it as the premium paid for the Tesla wouldn't be offset by the savings in fuel. And if I recall you have two Tesla's, so really doesn't seem to make financial sense - you being a "Tightwad" Or maybe I'm all confused.
bobandsherry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 08:20 PM   #2432
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Lakewood90712's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianne View Post
Just when I thought it was over, there it is...Tesla.

Lakewood90712 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2019, 09:41 PM   #2433
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobandsherry View Post
You should write a book, if my math is correct that's 216 kWh used. If just two "fill ups" for your EV that's 150 kWh, that's only about 500 miles a month. But that leaves only 66 kWh for everything else in your house. So def you should write a book on how to live on such little electricity.

But back to Tesla, with that little use not sure why you went for EV except just for the fun of it as the premium paid for the Tesla wouldn't be offset by the savings in fuel. And if I recall you have two Tesla's, so really doesn't seem to make financial sense - you being a "Tightwad" Or maybe I'm all confused.
If I wanted to save every last dollar, I would have kept my Prius, or sold it and got a Leaf. A Leaf would have met my driving needs. Saving every last dollar was not my decision, as you pointed out.

My #1 goal was car safety. Tesla is #1. California drivers are pitiful. I have a nice big battery to insulate me from impact.

The fact that I could afford it, the tax credits, the silent ride, outstanding sound system, all these were factors. We are all going to die someday, we should enjoy everything we can in life. I enjoy my cars. Robbie likes beef and crab. Breedlove likes loud engines. Everybody's different.

So if your main goal is how much is in your bank account, don't purchase a Tesla. I am 56. I'm doing anything I want from now til death that I can enjoy.

And I have been told 10 or 20 times about writing a book. The car purchases contradict my normal miserly ways. But I stopped working at 45 thanks to them, I wouldn't have been able to otherwise.
Mr. Tightwad is offline   Reply With Quote
View from Mercedes
Old 02-11-2019, 09:06 AM   #2434
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tacoma
Posts: 337
View from Mercedes

"We are changing the car more in the next 10 years than we ever have before"

If you have any doubts that EVs and autonomous are the near and far future of autos, here is another article that reinforces where the dollars will be going.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/m...rview-on-tech/
oneill225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 09:27 AM   #2435
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 20,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad View Post
....
The fact that I could afford it, the tax credits, the silent ride, outstanding sound system, all these were factors. We are all going to die someday, we should enjoy everything we can in life. I enjoy my cars. Robbie likes beef and crab. Breedlove likes loud engines. Everybody's different. ....
And that's fine, not everyone is buying based on economic decisions alone. But I'm still confused about what sort of point you were trying to make with your electric bills.

Regardless, as Tesla attempts to branch out to a larger audience (which is very relevant to Tesla's future), economics and fuel savings will become a larger issue for many. Here's what Musk said in 2015:


Quote:
Elon Musk @elonmusk

We debated this, but there really is $10k gas saved by most owners over 5 yrs (avg ownership period). Since it's true, we are sticking w it. -- Apr 10, 2015
Hmmmm. Keeping it simple, lets say charging is free. Gas prices at the time were ~ $2.40. Let's round up to $3.00. That's 667 gallons a year. For the average annual 12,000 mile driver, the car would have to get less than 18 mpg, even with those generous assumptions.

So for someone looking at the economics, and adding in the cost of charging (new owners don't get much/any free charging, right?), and the cost of installing a charger at home, versus gas prices on an affordable high mpg car, they are not going to find much savings.

That's does not sound helpful for Tesla, especially after Musk sets the bar so high...

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 09:59 AM   #2436
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 20,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneill225 View Post
"We are changing the car more in the next 10 years than we ever have before"

If you have any doubts that EVs and autonomous are the near and far future of autos, here is another article that reinforces where the dollars will be going.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/m...rview-on-tech/
It there anyone here doubting that EVs and autonomous driving have a future? I'm not sure what the point is of your posts like this.

Any debate is about how near and how much. And will Tesla stay competitive as that market grows. The vagueness of your statement makes it pretty much meaningless in the context of this thread.

Would you invest in a company/industry just based on them saying they are putting $ into research? Here's an example, and oddly, from a company making buggy whips vacuum tubes:

https://www.jj-electronic.com/en/company-profile

Quote:
We offer more than 35 preamp, power and rectifier tubes. All tubes were developed by our in-house research and engineering teams.
Even more oddly, there is a connection to Tesla (not TSLA though)!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JJ_Electronic

Quote:
... Before 1989, TESLA was the main Czechoslovak producer of electron tubes. While TESLA vacuum tubes were exported all over the world, and were known for their quality, the company did not survive the change of economic system after 1989 in combination with the downturn in the vacuum tube market. JJ Electronic was founded in 1993, using the old TESLA machines for the manufacture of vacuum tubes. Eventually, JJ Electronic started to produce their own line of vacuum tubes and electrolytic capacitors, being mainly targeted at high-end audiophile and guitar amplifier applications.
So the vacuum tube maker TESLA failed, and another company bought their production equipment and seem to be making money in a niche market. Hmmm, will that happen to TSLA? I don't know, but I would not rule it out.

-ERD50
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Tesla Leads
Old 02-11-2019, 10:05 AM   #2437
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Tacoma
Posts: 337
Tesla Leads

More evidence that the switch from traditional ICE vehicles to EV is harder than traditional auto makers may have believed.

This industry will be driven by battery tech and cost. Tesla is the company leading now and into the foreseeable future.

https://insideevs.com/porsche-audi-t...el-3-teardown/
oneill225 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 10:05 AM   #2438
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Chuckanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West of the Mississippi
Posts: 8,293
Note: I offer the article below for your consideration since the author spends a deal of it comparing the German auto industry's attempts to build EVs to what Tesla is doing.

Quote:
Thousands of people who drive a German car today are waiting impatiently for their first American car (the first American car they’ve ever bought in their life). It is both a first American car and a first electric car for most of them, and both of those qualities separately have previously been very convincing reasons to make sure you do not order. Today, everything is different, the world has changed.
Here's one guy's take on how the Germans are approaching the EV. Basically, he seems to be saying 'to little, to late'. And, that the German auto industry (60% of Germany's economic growth according to the author) may be at risk. You be the judge.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/10...till-sleeping/

Quote:
This is very important to comprehend, because to build an electric vehicle, if you have ICE tools, ICE experience, and ICE people, it is very hard. It is harder than most believe because it looks so similar from the outside — despite so much difference inside. We have seen the results from German automakers building EVs. Some of them are actually ICE vehicles with a battery and electric powertrain instead. Others are quite ugly. Some are nice to look at but fall behind in all specifications Tesla has proven possible today.
Quote:
Besides this really sad information, all of those incumbent automakers try to influence the public opinion with what they call “electrified vehicles,” which are in fact cars with combustion engines and carbon emissions. They are able to drive a few miles on electricity and then drive on gas or diesel.
The comparison of Tesla with BMW is interesting, IMHO. Who knows what will happen? Time will tell.

Quote:
BMW announced the i4 and i7, with promising ranges and price tags, for the years 2021 and 2022, which is about 3–4 years from now if everything happens as planned. BMW has just one full but old electric vehicle available for sale today, the i3, which had about 35,000 sales in 2018 (shrinking year over year).
__________________
The worst decisions are usually made in times of anger and impatience.
Chuckanut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 10:12 AM   #2439
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneill225 View Post
"We are changing the car more in the next 10 years than we ever have before"



If you have any doubts that EVs and autonomous are the near and far future of autos, here is another article that reinforces where the dollars will be going.



https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/m...rview-on-tech/
Perhaps I'm under the wrong impression, but I thought this thread was to be centered on Tesla as an investment opportunity and not on EV's and the future there of.
bobandsherry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2019, 10:18 AM   #2440
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 20,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneill225 View Post
More evidence that the switch from traditional ICE vehicles to EV is harder than traditional auto makers may have believed.

This industry will be driven by battery tech and cost. Tesla is the company leading now and into the foreseeable future.

https://insideevs.com/porsche-audi-t...el-3-teardown/
So while that article appears positive regarding Tesla versus Audi & Mercedes, I'm not sure there is much there to push Tesla stock price.

The Audi/Merc cars they are talking about are ~ $80,000 USD, right? Not really where Tesla is looking anymore in terms of future growth.

-ERD50
__________________

ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
More on the Tesla electric car Chuckanut Other topics 622 05-30-2015 01:42 PM
Zathras are you there? Tesla curiosityÖ. VaCollector FIRE and Money 21 08-22-2014 02:51 PM
Tesla Hacked ls99 Other topics 1 07-22-2014 10:16 PM
Elon Musk and selling Tesla cars frayne Other topics 4 08-22-2013 06:10 PM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:03 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.