Thoughts on TESLA

[ls99]

A new study shows electric cars are more polluting than diesel vehicles.


"When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which coal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich."
"The CO2 given off to produce the electricity that powers such vehicles also needs to be factored in, they say.

When all these factors are considered, each Tesla emits 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometre, which is more than a comparable diesel vehicle produced by the German company Mercedes, for example.

The German researchers, therefore, take issue with the fact that European officials view electric vehicles as zero-emission ones."
CESifo Group Munich - ifo Schnelldienst: Electric Vehicles are not a Panacea for Climate Change



The Brussels Times - Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows

 

[bobandsherry]

A new study shows electric cars are more polluting than diesel vehicles.

Heh, seems this question has been asked several times, especially by ERD50, in regards to just how clean EV is. Guess this answers that question. I'm sure there are counterpoints to be made too.

 

[bobandsherry]

So I'm gone a week for vacay and see that with good news of 1,000,000 robotaxis that Musk shared the stock still sits at a low. Seems Musk just likes using the 1,000,000 figure. Now 1,000,000 robotaxis and each of those will last 1,000,000 miles. Guess if ya going to exaggerate you might as well make it a big number. Then hellt just laugh it off later by saying you didn't think that was a serious figure, did ya.

 

[Chuckanut]

"When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which coal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich."
"The CO2 given off to produce the electricity that powers such vehicles also needs to be factored in, they say.

When all these factors are considered, each Tesla emits 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometre, which is more than a comparable diesel vehicle produced by the German company Mercedes, for example.

The German researchers, therefore, take issue with the fact that European officials view electric vehicles as zero-emission ones."
CESifo Group Munich - ifo Schnelldienst: Electric Vehicles are not a Panacea for Climate Change



The Brussels Times - Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows

I would not be surprised if the study is correct. I have found the claim that EVs are 'emission free' to be bogus. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere.

But, the same skepticism makes me want to see the numbers used to come to their conclusion. For example, they look at the CO2 emitted to create the batteries for the EV. But, do they also look at the CO2 emitted to make a diesel engine? The Devil, as we well know, is in the details.

 

[ls99]

I would not be surprised if the study is correct. I have found the claim that EVs are 'emission free' to be bogus. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere.

But, the same skepticism makes me want to see the numbers used to come to their conclusion. For example, they look at the CO2 emitted to create the batteries for the EV. But, do they also look at the CO2 emitted to make a diesel engine? The Devil, as we well know, is in the details.

I am not fluent in German. Am reasonably certain that the aspects of diesel fuel production and emissions was examined.


The authors and their contact info is public:
Contact

Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Hans-Werner Sinn

ifo Institute
Phone: +49(0)899224-1279
Fax: +49(0)899224-1901
Email: sinn@ifo.de


Suspect they are inundated with questions, though you may add yours to the quue.


The paper, 54 pages or so, in German:http://www.cesifo-group.de/DocDL/sd-2019-08-sinn-karl-buchal-motoren-2019-04-25.pdf

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

I predict some people are going to have a very hard time accepting the changes in vehicular transportation that are on the way.

Confirmation bias is amusing to observe.

 

[Ready]

I’m certainly not qualified to challenge an article like that one. But my experience in general with articles like these is that the author first chooses their position, and then looks for facts that support their position. Every country is going to have their own issues with how “clean” their electricity production is. I’m sure there are countries where it is so bad that you’d be better off driving gasoline powered cars.

 

[Totoro]

I am not fluent in German. Am reasonably certain that the aspects of diesel fuel production and emissions was examined.

Same here (not fluent), I seem to gather that they use the 2018 energy mix though. That's not intellectually fair: electricity based emissions are dropping fast, and all these EV cars are 'upgraded' as time goes by.

Within three years 24 out of 84 coal plants will be closed for example.

 

[ls99]

Same here (not fluent), I seem to gather that they use the 2018 energy mix though. That's not intellectually fair: electricity based emissions are dropping fast, and all these EV cars are 'upgraded' as time goes by.

Within three years 24 out of 84 coal plants will be closed for example.

Under Dieselmotor, they discuss using the Mercedes 220 D, with engine OM 654 as reference diesel engine. That has not been made AFIK in a long time. Probably 20or more years old or more design.

 

[eroscott]

He is trying to exhaust you. Anyone who thinks differently than him (Euroscott, McNeil, you or myself) he nitpicks, attempts to mock, and tries to annoy them so they will go away. He's been doing it for a long time.

Whenever anyone says anything positive about EV's he does this.

Bingo. I'm sure he has driven many people away from this forum. On other forums I'm on and have moderated these people are dealt with in a different manner.

 

[samclem]

That's All, Folks.

Thanks to many for the thoughtful and substantive contributions to this discussion. After long and careful consideration by the moderator team and several in-thread course corrections, we are bringing this thread to a close. This thread (and a "sister" EV thread) has provided a place for a useful exchange of ideas on TSLA and on EVs in general. Those who have read, posted, and enjoyed this thread also recognize that it has become increasingly difficult to keep this discussion focused in a productive direction.
EVs and Tesla, Inc will obviously remain a topic of interest. When it surfaces again, we are hopeful that a friendly and civil tone will prevail and will foster a discussion focused on facts and reasoned opinion.

Thanks to all for your understanding.