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Old 04-16-2017, 08:50 AM   #41
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So, with the best performance model they have, if you make half a dozen spirited 0-60 flat out runs and/or kick it up to the 140+ mph range for a few miles once or twice on a charge, how does that affect the ~300 mile distance between changes? True enough that gasoline powered cars will use more gas when driven harder, but I understand that. How does the same spirited driving translate with the best Tesla's range?
Pretty much exactly as it would affect any gas car.
If you cut the fuel efficiency 20% due to spirited driving you would cut the range 20%.
Actually, a little less, or more depending upon circumstances. ICE engines have horrid efficiency outside of their peak efficiency RPM bands. Electrics not only have a much better efficiency peak (3 times or so), but it is a much gentler slope, almost flat in comparison. So the spirited starts won't loose you much range.
The high speeds will though, with a vengeance. At 140mph cars get about 1/3 the efficiency vs 55mph. So a 300 mile Tesla would probably get about 110 miles at a constant 140. If you typically drive those speeds I wouldn't suggest electric.

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Also, how long does it take to fully charge nearly drained batteries at a supercharger station? To be honest, I drive a lot and have never seen a supercharger station, although I understand they are a couple in the area (within 75 miles) according to the maps I've seen.
I've never noticed a cigar shop either, although I have never looked for one
It takes 20-30 minutes to get enough range to reach the next supercharger (150-170 miles). The charge slows down as you charge, so a full charge (300 miles) takes about an hour and 10 minutes. We have only stuck around for a full charge once in the last 4+ years.

I last used one about 6 months ago. We used to each drive about 18,000 miles a year and we rarely used a supercharger. Basically only on long trips.
If you don't have a place to charge at home or work, buying an EV may not be more convenient than a gas car.
If you can charge at home or work, the added convenience is amazing.
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:57 AM   #42
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So as a Tesla owner, (or anyone else that "really" knows) maybe you can give me honest real world answers. I know next to nothing about Tesla's so forgive me if I ask some stupid questions.
I get about 230 miles/charge on my model X P90. I charge at night at about 25 mi/hour so for daily use I don't notice it vs. going to a gas station.

I commute to work once a week about 60 miles in each direction. If I drive fast, or "have fun" it has a pretty big impact on the battery. Usually I'll have about 20% charge left when I come home. So I drive about 130 miles and use 80% so I'm technically burning about 184 of those 230 miles even though I'm only driving about 130-140 miles.

I don't normally use the crazy acceleration or speed. Traffic + Family + Common Sense prevent it :P.

I have taken several trips up the coast of California including in remote areas. You have to plan more... you have to anticipate about an extra 50-70 minutes every 3-4 hours for charging. This SOUNDS like a lot, but rarely did it interfere much. Consider your normal vacation driving. You stop every 3-4 hours anyway... pee breaks, coffee, snacks, fill up on gas. Rarely are you out of the gas station/restaurant/coffee place in less than 30 minutes. So it's really an extra 20 minutes on top of that. What it does is slow down your "hurry up and get to our destination" way of thinking and because superchargers are occasionally in out of the way places, you see places you otherwise wouldn't.

In very rural areas (for example my wife and I took a trip up the north coast of Cali) you have to get more creative. Hotels have chargers... they can be slow... they can be broken. Local places might or might not have them. Many people have no idea what you are talking about. I've never run out of power, but I have had many hours of anxiety about it. Also, because Tesla uses internet extensively, losing internet connection makes it harder to find charging places, etc.

I LIKE new technology and bought my Tesla expecting a very expensive Beta test. So far it's been a very satisfying and successful beta, but it's not nearly as convenient or fire and forget as buying a Honda or Toyota... you have to WANT to experience new technology from both the pros and cons... and despite what some people say... the zero gasoline cost will never overcome the cost of the car itself :P. It's not an economical decision by any stretch of the imagination. I used to buy high end PCs to play the newest video games... well still do... this is kinda like that .
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:12 AM   #43
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Pretty much exactly as it would affect any gas car.
If you cut the fuel efficiency 20% due to spirited driving you would cut the range 20%.
Actually, a little less, or more depending upon circumstances. ICE engines have horrid efficiency outside of their peak efficiency RPM bands. Electrics not only have a much better efficiency peak (3 times or so), but it is a much gentler slope, almost flat in comparison. So the spirited starts won't loose you much range.
The high speeds will though, with a vengeance. At 140mph cars get about 1/3 the efficiency vs 55mph. So a 300 mile Tesla would probably get about 110 miles at a constant 140. If you typically drive those speeds I wouldn't suggest electric.



I've never noticed a cigar shop either, although I have never looked for one

It takes 20-30 minutes to get enough range to reach the next supercharger (150-170 miles). The charge slows down as you charge, so a full charge (300 miles) takes about an hour and 10 minutes. We have only stuck around for a full charge once in the last 4+ years.
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I get about 230 miles/charge on my model X P90. I charge at night at about 25 mi/hour so for daily use I don't notice it vs. going to a gas station.

I commute to work once a week about 60 miles in each direction. If I drive fast, or "have fun" it has a pretty big impact on the battery. Usually I'll have about 20% charge left when I come home. So I drive about 130 miles and use 80% so I'm technically burning about 184 of those 230 miles even though I'm only driving about 130-140 miles.



I LIKE new technology and bought my Tesla expecting a very expensive Beta test. So far it's been a very satisfying and successful beta, but it's not nearly as convenient or fire and forget as buying a Honda or Toyota... you have to WANT to experience new technology from both the pros and cons... and despite what some people say... the zero gasoline cost will never overcome the cost of the car itself :P. It's not an economical decision by any stretch of the imagination. I used to buy high end PCs to play the newest video games... well still do... this is kinda like that .
Thanks, your answers pretty much answered my questions and is about what I expected, except that it took so long for a full charge at a supercharging station.

As an FYI, even a Corvette will burn an entire tank a gas in less than 100 miles running near it's top speeds.

And yes, even though I don't smoke, I have noticed a few cigar shops around.
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Old 04-16-2017, 10:08 AM   #44
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:05 PM   #45
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I decided to look... there are two charging stations in Houston.... one at a 'viewing' location...

But, Dallas/Ft. Worth has zero (one north in Denton, but that is a drive)... Austin has zero, San Antonio has zero... they seem to be in some smaller towns...


SOOO, the comment that you would be stopping anyhow etc. etc. does not compute to me... you have to drive a specific route in order to get to the next charging station... if you wan to go a different way that might be faster.... well, you are SOL....


To add.... if you live down where my sister lives then you have to drive 50 plus miles to get to the charging station.... if that is not your home base...
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Old 04-16-2017, 02:45 PM   #46
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We're in the middle of a trip with our Model X 100D. 2000+ miles so far. I don't think we made significant detours in order to hit Superchargers. They pretty much line the expected long distance routes, minus a few gaps.

At our current stop we're plugged into a normal 120V 15A socket in the garage. That gets us about 3 miles per hour of charging. Enough to drive around normally for us. At the next stop we'll have a Supercharger about 5 miles away, so we'll use that.

Most of the Superchargers have been behind hotels or restaurants or tucked away in mall parking lots. You're not likely to see them. There are also plenty of slow "destination" chargers that can charge you overnight but you wouldn't want to wait for otherwise.

We make about 4 stops for charging a day. Two of those stops are for lunch and dinner and take longer than the charge requires. That leaves two stops we have to wait for 30 minutes or so. Good time to walk around a bit.
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:20 PM   #47
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We're in the middle of a trip with our Model X 100D. 2000+ miles so far. I don't think we made significant detours in order to hit Superchargers. They pretty much line the expected long distance routes, minus a few gaps.

At our current stop we're plugged into a normal 120V 15A socket in the garage. That gets us about 3 miles per hour of charging. Enough to drive around normally for us. At the next stop we'll have a Supercharger about 5 miles away, so we'll use that.

Most of the Superchargers have been behind hotels or restaurants or tucked away in mall parking lots. You're not likely to see them. There are also plenty of slow "destination" chargers that can charge you overnight but you wouldn't want to wait for otherwise.

We make about 4 stops for charging a day. Two of those stops are for lunch and dinner and take longer than the charge requires. That leaves two stops we have to wait for 30 minutes or so. Good time to walk around a bit.
Sounds like the car is controlling YOUR schedule. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
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Old 04-16-2017, 06:50 PM   #48
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Sounds like the car is controlling YOUR schedule. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
"Schedules" and routes are always affected by your mode of transportation.
With most cars, you are limited to driving where there are roads.
With gas cars, your car "controls" how often you stop.
"Control" as you can see is a poor word to use. Yes, it sets some boundaries. And influences your schedule, but neither presence of gas station, or electrical outlets "control" your schedule.

When we drove out to California and back, there were some supercharger we skipped, and others we stopped at.
In addition, we only were waiting for the car to complete charging once (out of about 30 stops).
In exchange, I have not had to stop for fuel a single day outside long trips, once in four years
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Old 04-16-2017, 06:58 PM   #49
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In exchange, I have not had to stop for fuel a single day outside long trips, once in four years

Then again I do not have to take time to plug in my car every day when I get home... not unplug my car when I am ready to go.... I do not drive much now so unless we are going somewhere that is a distance I can go 2 or 3 weeks per fill up... and that is less than 10 minutes... I would be that I spend less time 'filling up' my car than you do...
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Old 04-16-2017, 06:58 PM   #50
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In exchange, I have not had to stop for fuel a single day outside long trips, once in four years
This is a great trade off IMHO. For all most all of a person's regular driving there will never be another stop at a gas station! Wow!
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Old 04-16-2017, 07:17 PM   #51
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Then again I do not have to take time to plug in my car every day when I get home... not unplug my car when I am ready to go.... I do not drive much now so unless we are going somewhere that is a distance I can go 2 or 3 weeks per fill up... and that is less than 10 minutes... I would be that I spend less time 'filling up' my car than you do...
Plugging in, and unplugging takes about 10 seconds (each).
At 20 seconds a day, and I don't charge every day, I spend 10 minutes in about a month.
But it isn't just the time, it is what you are doing. Now, I may not be the best planner, but when I used to stop for gas, it occasionally made me late to an event, work, etc. I also always had to stop in the middle of a trip to work, and appointment, to get back home after a long day at work, etc.
None of these were more than an annoyance, but I prefer life without annoyances.
I also don't end up pumping gas while standing out in a blizzard. That isn't an issue for many, but is for me in the winters.

For me, it has simply made life more pleasant
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:45 PM   #52
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Zathras, have you seen a significant range hit in cold weather? Figuring I would likely get a Model 3 but cold weather range is my largest concern.
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:04 PM   #53
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Sounds like the car is controlling YOUR schedule. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
"Schedules" and routes are always affected by your mode of transportation.
With most cars, you are limited to driving where there are roads.
With gas cars, your car "controls" how often you stop. ...
Woah. EVs and ICE/hybrids drive the same roads, so that's a wash.

Gas cars stop less frequently than EVs. Rationalization much?
I'm sure the Tesla is an impressive car (it ought to be, at that price). But let's not make claims that are just "out there".

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Old 04-16-2017, 10:47 PM   #54
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Zathras, have you seen a significant range hit in cold weather? Figuring I would likely get a Model 3 but cold weather range is my largest concern.
With me it is how much does it 'cost' to have the car air conditioned.... it is HOT and HUMID around here.... we run the AC almost all year and run it hard....


Now... one thing that might be cool (pun intended) is if you can tell your car to turn on your AC before you get to it so it can cool down a bit.... scalding hot seats are not good when you come out of wherever you are...
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Old 04-17-2017, 05:37 AM   #55
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Zathras, have you seen a significant range hit in cold weather? Figuring I would likely get a Model 3 but cold weather range is my largest concern.
Yes, cold definitely has an impact on range. Gas cars take about a 20% hit in range/mpg in cold. Depending upon how your car is stored and the type of driving, EVs tend to take a hit around 25%-30% in efficiency/range.

In a worse case scenario, driving in the absolute worst method (lots of short trips without plugging in and with a long enough time for the battery to get cold) you may loose 45%-50%.
In Toronto, if you can't plug in at home I wouldn't recommend an EV, but a PHEV could be a good option.

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Woah. EVs and ICE/hybrids drive the same roads, so that's a wash.

Gas cars stop less frequently than EVs. Rationalization much?
I'm sure the Tesla is an impressive car (it ought to be, at that price). But let's not make claims that are just "out there".

-ERD50
My point wasn't that EVs don't have to follow roads. It was that all vehicles have limitations.
As an overall rule, I stop far less often in my EVs than I did in any of my gas cars. Depending upon the range of the EV and personal driving patterns that may not be the case for all people.

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With me it is how much does it 'cost' to have the car air conditioned.... it is HOT and HUMID around here.... we run the AC almost all year and run it hard....


Now... one thing that might be cool (pun intended) is if you can tell your car to turn on your AC before you get to it so it can cool down a bit.... scalding hot seats are not good when you come out of wherever you are...
Heavy AC use will shorten the range, but not nearly as much as the heater in cold weather states.
A for telling the car to run the AC, many of the EVs are set up so you can run the AC on a schedule. So it could start cooling the car automatically.
All of them, to my knowledge, let you turn onthe AC/heater remotely via a smart phone.
My wife loves getting into a warm car in the winter
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Old 04-17-2017, 07:13 AM   #56
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This thread has absolutely convinced me that a EV is not for me and my lifestyle. I don't care if supercharges were as common as gas stations. Charging times would kill the deal for me. YMMV
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Old 04-17-2017, 07:16 AM   #57
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When I take long trips (>4 hours), I tend to stop long enough to get gas (~ 5 minutes) and go through the drive through (~5 minutes) before I'm back on the road. When my folks lived in Dallas I'd go there every year. It's about a 11.5 hour drive with 1-2 stops for gas/food. It's a long day, but I could leave ~ 6 in the morning and be there for dinner.

I looked into what it would take to make that same drive a few years ago and I'd have needed to detour to I-10 and add ~5 hours onto the trip in detours to catch superchargers, plus add ~4-5 hours onto the trip for charging time. Today, they have more superchargers. Assuming I never hit a supercharger that was "full" (and for most of the supercharger stations I think that would take 8 cars filling up), I'd still have 3-4 hours worth of charging to get there as opposed to 10-20 minutes for food/gas. That's a significant inconvenience in my opinion.

Try planning a trip from Memphis to Oklahoma city right now. Zero superchargers on the "fast route" down I-40. So you can take slow chargers and their charging time or you can add charging time plus an extra 200 miles onto the trip according to Tesla's current map of superchargers.

I can drive any route that comes up on my Google maps and am confident I can get fuel anywhere in this country with my ICE vehicle. Until the same can be said for driving an all-electric vehicle, I'll never own one as a primary vehicle. Until I can charge one from empty to full in a similar time-frame as I can fill up my gas-tank, I'll also be unlikely to own one as a primary vehicle.
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Old 04-17-2017, 07:27 AM   #58
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This thread has absolutely convinced me that a EV is not for me and my lifestyle. I don't care if supercharges were as common as gas stations. Charging times would kill the deal for me. YMMV
Good, far better to look into it and find out before you buy.
EVs aren't for everyone. If you travel a lot and prefer getting to your destination in as little time as possible, EVs aren't a good choice.
I am happy to take a little extra time on long trips for the added convenience around town.
Some people aren't, and that is ok
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:56 AM   #59
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I knew of a guy who bought a Tesla a few years ago because he had never traveled much in the USA and wanted to 'see the country'. He figured he could drive it all over the US and never pay a penny for fuel. He followed the SuperCharger Route and did exactly that. He had a great time an visited a lot of places. He was not the type who would have enjoyed driving 120 miles round trip on some little used back road to visit Little Pebbles State Park, so it worked for him.

Alas, as much as I would love to have a Tesla, there are other things I would rather have more. To each his own. We are all different. OTOH, if I won a 5+ million dollar lottery I would probably spring for the Tesla within a week of getting the check.
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Old 04-18-2017, 05:30 PM   #60
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Without comment... see headline

https://seekingalpha.com/article/406...-tesla-swindle
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