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Old 04-21-2017, 02:01 PM   #81
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And the fun continues:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/04...us-to-be-used/

Tesla's response:
"
Tesla fires back, calling lawsuit a "disingenuous attempt to secure attorney’s fees. "

"Three Tesla owners across the United States have sued the California automaker—saying that some of the main safety features that they expected to have when they purchased their cars in late 2016 are "vaporware." They accuse Tesla of fraud and deceptive trade practices, among other allegations."

I'll wait for the courts to sort out facts from fiction.

"vaporware" for those unfamiliar with the term, is stuff of magic, I believe started in the 'puter industry to describe highly touted stuff (hard or software) which never materialises.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:31 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by ls99 View Post
And the fun continues:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/04...us-to-be-used/

Tesla's response:
"
Tesla fires back, calling lawsuit a "disingenuous attempt to secure attorney’s fees. "

"Three Tesla owners across the United States have sued the California automaker—saying that some of the main safety features that they expected to have when they purchased their cars in late 2016 are "vaporware." They accuse Tesla of fraud and deceptive trade practices, among other allegations."

I'll wait for the courts to sort out facts from fiction.

"vaporware" for those unfamiliar with the term, is stuff of magic, I believe started in the 'puter industry to describe highly touted stuff (hard or software) which never materialises.
At first glance, I figured this was just another sue-happy cry-baby with a money grubbing lawyer. But, he says that Automatic Emergency Braking was standard on his prior Audi A7, and if I understand this, that feature is part of Tesla's Autopilot. He doesn't trust AP, so he turns it off, and now he doesn't have Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB).

"Dean had no intention to buy a car that does not have AEB; it was standard on his prior Audi A7"

I can see being perturbed, after spending an added $5,000 for AP?

-ERD50
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:19 PM   #83
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He doesn't trust AP, so he turns it off, and now he doesn't have Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB)...
Any technical reason AEB has to be tied to the Autosteer? Don't many cars have AEB or adaptive cruise control without also taking over the steering wheel?
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:23 PM   #84
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Any technical reason AEB has to be tied to the Autosteer? Don't many cars have AEB or adaptive cruise control without also taking over the steering wheel?
I think that's his complaint. Maybe the Tesla owners here can chime in on this.

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Old 03-28-2018, 08:32 AM   #85
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Hmmm.... One car crash drives the stock price down over 10% in a few days.
Is this a buying opportunity?

Maybe. Any news on how the Model 3 production is coming along?
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:41 AM   #86
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My guess is that at some point Tesla will be purchased by a major auto company for its technology. To bad as that will probably be the kiss of death for Tesla.

Mr. Musk has made it clear that in the long run his BIG goal is SpaceX. He wants to insure the survival of the human race in case that asteroid that messes up our Firecalc tested plans really does hit us.
Model 3 is way behind. My buddy who put a downpayment down years ago just a few days ago received an invite to ORDER his 3. That's right, ORDER it. Who knows how long it takes for production. They are years behind on production schedules.

You are right that SpaxeX is his main focus. But what about all that space junk we need to fly past to get out there, over and over again.

Musks purpose for waking up is SpaxeX, the other projects are just potential revenue streams to fund SpaxeX. Sort of like AMZN and Bezos, its really just a stepping stone and revenue stream to Blue Origin.

Making space affordable... that would be the expected outcome.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:10 AM   #87
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I never bought Amazon, or Netflix, or Google. I also never shorted them.
I wrote the above on 4/2017, implying I treat Tesla the same.

Still holds true.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:19 AM   #88
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... Any news on how the Model 3 production is coming along?
No official word. In MN I am seeing more and more people get them, including some non owners who reserved on day 1.
They very well may have missed their production rate target for the end of first quarter. If they hit it, my guess is they hit it at the very end of the quarter.

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Model 3 is way behind. My buddy who put a downpayment down years ago just a few days ago received an invite to ORDER his 3. That's right, ORDER it. Who knows how long it takes for production. They are years behind on production schedules.
...
Congratulations to your buddy!
Mine was delivered 26 days after I ordered it. Average seems to be about three weeks, but if your buddy isn’t in CA four week average is more on target.
Tesla currently states 3-6 weeks.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:27 AM   #89
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I wrote the above on 4/2017, implying I treat Tesla the same.

Still holds true.
Yeah. Whenever I have a passing thought of shorting a hot stock (remember the "nifty 50?") I remember this quotation:

"The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."

I don't remember who said it, but the Long Term Capital Management guys learned this lesson the hard way IMO.
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Old 03-28-2018, 09:41 AM   #90
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This pretty much sums up my thoughts on Tesla. Though it may take longer than a few months.
Quote:
Unless Elon Musk “pulls a rabbit out of his hat,” Tesla will be bankrupt within four months, says John Thompson of Vilas Capital Management.

“Companies eventually have to make a profit, and I don’t ever see that happening here,” he told MarketWatch. “This is one of the worst income statements I’ve ever seen and between the story and the financials, the financials will win out in this case.”
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Old 03-28-2018, 10:20 AM   #91
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This article says it's on the verge of bankruptcy.

The Silver Bear Cafe
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:51 AM   #92
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This article says it's on the verge of bankruptcy.

The Silver Bear Cafe
Just a thought...

How sound would GM, Ford and Chrysler be if they paid back the bond holders that got stiffed? And anybody else that suffered from their 're-organization' a few years back?

The government certainly tilted the playing field in favor of the Big 3 in 2009.


I am not arguing that Tesla is a good investment or will be a viable company 12 months from now. And I am certainly not arguing for a government bailout.

Quote:
Bailouts

European Loans

GM received loans from European governments in 2009, and has reduced its ownership stake in European operations as part of its reorganization.[89] As of July 10, 2009, the new GM has over $40 billion in cash, with the company's reorganized liability total of $48.8 billion which includes $24.4 billion to be paid to the Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association (VEBA) trust, $9 billion to the U.S. and Canadian governments, and $15 billion in liabilities to suppliers and other bills. GM is slated to pay $10 billion to the VEBA trust in December 2009, with the remainder being paid in increments from 2012-19. GM isn't required to make contributions to its pension fund until 2013, but it may elect to if needed, since the company contributed $15.2 billion to its pension fund in 2003. Stock market conditions cause the fund value to fluctuate. In February 2009, GM's combined pension fund had about $85 billion in assets, $56 billion in assets for hourly pensions and $29 billion in assets for salaried pensions.[90]
United States

Through the Troubled Asset Relief Program the US Treasury invested a total $51 billion into the GM bankruptcy.[91] Until December 10, 2013, the U. S. Treasury recovered $39 billion from selling its GM stake. The final direct cost to the Treasury of the GM bailout was $11[92]-12 billion ($10.5 billion for General Motors and $1.5 billion for former GM financing GMAC, now known as Ally).[93] Local tax incentives amounted to $1.7 billion, most of them in Michigan.[94][95] A study by the Center for Automotive Research found that the GM bailout saved 1.2 million jobs and preserved $34.9 billion in tax revenue.[93][93]
Quote:
Motors Liquidation Company

Main article: Motors Liquidation Company
General Motors Corporation, upon sale of its major assets, trademarks and intellectual property on July 10, 2009, pursuant to the provisions of section 363 of the Bankruptcy Code, was renamed as Motors Liquidation Company.[86] It continued its bankruptcy court proceedings, exiting bankruptcy and splitting into four trusts.[86] Motors Liquidation Company announced on July 10, 2009 in relation to its equity and debt investors:[86]
Management continues to remind investors of its strong belief that there will be no value for the common stockholders in the bankruptcy liquidation process, even under the most optimistic of scenarios. Stockholders of a company in chapter 11 generally receive value only if all claims of the company's secured and unsecured creditors are fully satisfied. In this case, management strongly believes all such claims will not be fully satisfied, leading to its conclusion that the common stock will have no value.
None of the publicly owned stocks or bonds issued by the former General Motors Corporation (now renamed "Motors Liquidation Company"), including its common stock formerly traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the ticker symbol "GM", are or will become securities of General Motors Company (the "new GM"), which is an independent separate company. All of these securities relate to Motors Liquidation Company, and will be treated in accordance with the provisions of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code and the rulings of the Bankruptcy court.
Motors Liquidation Company's stock symbol was changed from GMGMQ to MTLQQ, effective July 15, 2009.
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Old 03-28-2018, 11:53 AM   #93
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Hmmm.... One car crash drives the stock price down over 10% in a few days.
Is this a buying opportunity?

Maybe. Any news on how the Model 3 production is coming along?


I can't tell if you are joking. There are many issues beyond the crash, mostly related to their financials IMO.
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:02 PM   #94
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I can't tell if you are joking. There are many issues beyond the crash, mostly related to their financials IMO.
Not a joke at all. Just wondering. That's why I asked about the Model 3. If deliveries and paid for orders really, really pick up, they might stay above water. It happened once before with the Model S. Besides some government money they had a huge surge in orders at a critical time which provided the $$'s they needed.

No, I am not rushing out to buy Tesla stock. I admire Mr. Musk but he still puts his pants on one leg at a time.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:31 PM   #95
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When Tesla went shopping for some cash last year, I read that several pundits in the bond market were surprised that it was able to get $1.8B at 5.3% interest rate. Tesla had hoped to raise $1.5B at 5.25%.

Yesterday, I saw that this bond was priced at 90c on the dollar. Today, it's 87c. I do not own or follow Tesla to know how much of that money if any went to support the home solar business that people had said Musk should stay away from.

Musk has a strong contingent of followers and supporters. However, all they can do to support him is to buy his cars and products, which are not bad stuff from what I have read about, other than the problematic Autosteer that is.

Just last week, shareholders just voted for him a generous stock option package if he could grow the company like he said he would. Maybe his mystique is strong enough for investors to open their wallets. I dunno.
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Old 03-28-2018, 01:49 PM   #96
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Musk has a strong contingent of followers and supporters. However, all they can do to support him is to buy his cars and products, which are not bad stuff from what I have read about, other than the problematic Autosteer that is.
My understanding - based upon the biography written about him - is that this is just what people did. Back when Tesla was almost bankrupt it was saved by two thinks. - a huge loan from the Feds, and a huge increase in the number of people putting their money into buying the Model S.

The story goes that Musk realized he needed cash, fast. He picked 150 Tesla workers who did other things and turned them into a sales force. Their job was to call people who had reserved a spot for the Model 2 but so far not yet actually agreed to buy one, and get them to convert their reservation into an actual purchase. Apparently this was a huge success and hundreds of millions flowed into the company in a few months.

The story is in this book:

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/elo...780062301253#/
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:14 PM   #97
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Does Tesla not have a backlog already that it cannot fulfill?

In order for his buyers to support him, they have to pay in advance prior to taking delivery, and I don't think anyone would do that. Maybe a hefty deposit? How much would that have to be, in order to make a difference?
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:31 PM   #98
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Tesla debt has been downgraded. Probably a good reason whey the stock is tanking.

Article: https://wolfstreet.com/2018/03/28/te...mmed-by-tesla/

Quote:
During after-hours trading, Tesla got hit on the credit side with a resounding downgrade from Moody’s, which specifically:

Cut the corporate credit rating by one notch to B3, just above deep-junk Caa1.
Cut the unsecured-note rating one notch to Caa1
Cut the Speculative Grade Liquidity rating to SGL-4 from SGL-3.
Changed the outlook from stable to “negative.”
Quote:
Moody’s cites these reasons:

Tesla’s ratings reflect the significant shortfall in the production rate of the company’s Model 3 electric vehicle.

Tesla produced only 2,425 Model 3s during the fourth quarter of 2017; it is currently targeting a weekly production rate of 2,500 by the end of March, and 5,000 per week by the end of June. This compares with the company’s year-earlier production expectations of 5,000 per week by the end of 2017 and 10,000 by the end of 2018.
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Old 03-28-2018, 02:57 PM   #99
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Those production numbers were old. Tesla will release new numbers next week. It may show an improvement.
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Old 03-28-2018, 04:03 PM   #100
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Odd for Moody’s to list those production #s as a reason for a downgrade today. Since the change to production numbers was made some time ago.

However, if they have inside info showing Tesla is not going to hit their 2500/week expectation, and can’t talk about it, that may be a reason for the downgrade.

Tesla’s issue right now is not orders, it is production capability. Tesla will live or die based on it being able to produce at a large scale before the money and ability to raise money runs out.
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