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Old 12-04-2018, 11:24 AM   #1421
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Except, Elon says they will be off the grid.
Of course, we know Elon's issue with saying truths. Also, "over time" and "almost all" are weasel words.

This article has more, including another overhead artist picture to help you guys do your engineering calculations.

https://electrek.co/2017/06/09/tesla...rid-elon-musk/

Edit: I looked a little closer at the artist concept referenced and they didn't even put panels on the service and lounge building! Wow, those are awesome panels.
I have always known that Elon is no engineer, despite how highly people think of him. But he should still know enough that claiming charging stations to be completely off-grid would require him to acquire huge land areas, and a huge capital invesments, money that he does not have. That knowledge only requires basic arithmetic.

So, I conclude that Elon is either a total ignoramus if he believes what he says, or that he knows and can lie without turning red.
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Old 12-04-2018, 11:55 AM   #1422
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.... So, I conclude that Elon is either a total ignoramus if he believes what he says, or that he knows and can lie without turning red.
My vote is for " he knows and can lie ". It's marketing.

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Old 12-04-2018, 12:59 PM   #1423
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He just recently admitted Tesla was single digit weeks away from bankruptcy at the time he was trying to fight off the shortsellers.


He's a great salesmen and doesn't mind flat out deceit.


On the other hand, he did build a reusable rocket company out of nothing and his Tesla actually got to mass production. The original Tesla founder wouldn't have been able to do that.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:28 PM   #1424
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I have always known that Elon is no engineer, despite how highly people think of him. But he should still know enough that claiming charging stations to be completely off-grid would require him to acquire huge land areas, and a huge capital invesments, money that he does not have. That knowledge only requires basic arithmetic.

So, I conclude that Elon is either a total ignoramus if he believes what he says, or that he knows and can lie without turning red.
I interpreted as meaning that solar production of the charging stations would generate all the electricity that was needed to charge the vehicles, not that they wouldn't be connected to the grid.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:35 PM   #1425
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I interpreted as meaning that solar production of the charging stations would generate all the electricity that was needed to charge the vehicles, not that they wouldn't be connected to the grid.
If that was his point (despite what he actually said about disconnecting from the grid) , then putting all the panels at the charging stations is ridiculous. Sure, use the canopy rooftops there (primarily for PR), but for the (95%?) of the panels that can't be accommodated on the roof, put them somewhere cheap. Real estate under power lines than can be bought for $2000/acre, on top of large industrial buildings, etc. Buy a huge chunk of cheap land somewhere and just add another 3,600 square feet of panels for every charger that is installed somewhere.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:37 PM   #1426
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I interpreted as meaning that solar production of the charging stations would generate all the electricity that was needed to charge the vehicles, not that they wouldn't be connected to the grid.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/...-elontweets%2F

Actually Elon said he would be disconnected from the grid as you can see in this tweet. This was in response this was actually being powered by coal Elon answered with this tweet, when the individual correctly noted a football size field would be needed for each supercharger Elon did not answer and instead other Tesla owners claimed that Elon needed to be connected to the grid to send all the excess electricity back to society. Of course "over time" for Elon is before he dies.
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Old 12-04-2018, 01:38 PM   #1427
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I interpreted as meaning that solar production of the charging stations would generate all the electricity that was needed to charge the vehicles, not that they wouldn't be connected to the grid.
He clearly said "disconnect from the grid."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg disconnect.JPG (54.2 KB, 13 views)
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:12 PM   #1428
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https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/...-elontweets%2F

Actually Elon said he would be disconnected from the grid as you can see in this tweet. This was in response this was actually being powered by coal Elon answered with this tweet, when the individual correctly noted a football size field would be needed for each supercharger Elon did not answer and instead other Tesla owners claimed that Elon needed to be connected to the grid to send all the excess electricity back to society. Of course "over time" for Elon is before he dies.
I guess it depends what you mean by off the grid. I often say that I'm "almost" off the grid since the Tesla plus my solar panels mean I used a few hundred KWH/month from the grid. I see he did say disconnect which is different word than "off" the grid, but I interpret it as the same.

It doesn't make sense to physically disconnect from the grid, for all the reason people point out. Also he did use the words "over time". Time is a very fluid concept in Elon-speak, and almost certainly twice as long as what he initially says.
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:35 PM   #1429
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It doesn't make sense to physically disconnect from the grid, for all the reason people point out. Also he did use the words "over time". Time is a very fluid concept in Elon-speak, and almost certainly twice as long as what he initially says.
And that's what makes it frustrating. He's vague enough to make an argument for everyone.

To the coal plant hater: "Good, they will be off the grid."
To the engineers watching: "Good, it will happen far into the future, because initially they must be connected since the math doesn't make sense with today's panel technology."

I admire Elon for many of the things he's done, but his marketing antics really are annoying.
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:47 PM   #1430
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And that's what makes it frustrating. He's vague enough to make an argument for everyone.

To the coal plant hater: "Good, they will be off the grid."
To the engineers watching: "Good, it will happen far into the future, because initially they must be connected since the math doesn't make sense with today's panel technology."

I admire Elon for many of the things he's done, but his marketing antics really are annoying.
No argument here. For a genius, he says a lot of stupid things. It is even worse if you work there.
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Old 12-04-2018, 03:07 PM   #1431
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To me, Musk is a BS'ing marketeer who happened to raise enough money to hire good engineers to carry out some of his ideas. To that, I give him credit.

But no engineers will be good enough to repeal the laws of physics.
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Old 12-04-2018, 03:12 PM   #1432
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Forgot to add, I read the Twitter thread posted above, and indeed many people asked how large a solar farm would be needed to support a charging installation. Not everyone is fooled.

I do not have a Twitter account, let alone the desire to follow silly tweets. They would drive me nuts, and raise my blood pressure.
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Tesla at the LA Auto show
Old 12-05-2018, 09:13 PM   #1433
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Tesla at the LA Auto show

Just got back. Lots of interesting cars of most brands except Ferrari , Bentley and Bugatti weren't there. First time in a Tesla. Model 3 looks great, but way to cramped for me, bumped my head getting in. Model X very roomy.
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:51 AM   #1434
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I'm re-posting a portion of my earlier post below. I'd be interested in hearing the numbers from the Tesla owners. I've read a bit about the costs of Tesla's recc service plan, but it seems you need to be an owner to get access to the data, and it was hard to put together from random posts I found.

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... And, the car has no required service other than tire rotation and changing the brake fluid every 2 years. So much fewer trips to the service center than my Lexus requires. Every time I do a routine 5,000 mile maintenance on the Lexus I spend at least $300, and once it get to around 15,000 it seems to run closer to $1,000. Over many years that really begins to add up compared to the Tesla.
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I can understand objections to EVs. But I have to say the appeal of Hybrids is lost to me. They strike me as the toaster oven of the car universe.

You are lugging around and having to maintain all the crap associated with ICE cars radiators, fuel injection systems, transmissions and plus an engine. ....

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Our ICE maintenance costs are no where near that. Why are yours so high? Looking back at our 2011 Honda CRV: ....

So seven years, and for non-EV stuff we are talking average of less than $80 a year. . And maybe another ~ $60/year if I needed a brake job, and amortize that. Roughly $140/year, add another $$10 to include next battery replacement.

....

How does that compare to Tesla's recc service? I bet they are a lot higher, as a local garage won't handle some of that? And I've seen they recc battery coolant replacement at year 4. My (radiator) coolant is on the minder, with no mileage listed in the manual, and it has not asked for it yet. My trans fluid is lifetime if I don't tow (I don't).

Tire rotations, cabin filter, wipers, etc are common to EV, so no change there.

I'll bet that Tesla's maintenance costs are higher (probably by a lot) than mine, because little is tied to the ICE, and you have to go to Telsa for this, which I bet it far higher than Matt (who I know and can actually trust) at my local shop.

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Old 12-08-2018, 10:05 AM   #1435
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The solar parking cover on the charging stations is a perfect example of why solar panels for the roof of an electric car will have negligible effect. There is just not enough area to generate any amount of electricity that would actually effect the charge status of the car batteries.
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Old 12-08-2018, 11:41 AM   #1436
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The solar parking cover on the charging stations is a perfect example of why solar panels for the roof of an electric car will have negligible effect. There is just not enough area to generate any amount of electricity that would actually effect the charge status of the car batteries.
And that's why no car makers bother to put a solar roof on their EVs.

Pointless, unless you just want to maintain a bit of charge if you park the car for a very long time (like several months), and want to keep the electronics alive for the car to maintain contact with the Web.
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:33 PM   #1437
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An EV owner can consult his manual to see what the car maker recommends. However, just from the technical info regarding lithium batteries in general, I can see the following practices.

1) If the battery was charged before getting cold soaked, discharging (driving) is OK as long as the current demand is reduced. Remember that charging is a big nono, but discharging at a lower current is OK. The battery will warm itself up as it is being "worked". Or some of its juice could be used in a heater for self-warming, as the battery has a circulatory coolant system for temperature control. This could explain why the range of EVs is reduced in the winter, because not just the passenger compartment needs heat, but the battery needs to warm itself too.

2) If the cold-soaked battery is discharged and an AC outlet is available for charging, the car electronics will turn on an electric heater in the battery coolant system to heat up the battery with that AC power, then turns on the charger once the temperature is sufficiently raised.
Thanks. Sounds like a lot of thought & effort vs just pushing a button to start an engine.
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:27 AM   #1438
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60 minutes interview with Elan Musk last night. Interesting view of the world.
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:31 AM   #1439
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Interesting that why we are fiddling on this thread, TSLA has had a nice run up in stock price the last few weeks while other tech concerns have cratered.
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Old 12-10-2018, 09:14 AM   #1440
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60 minutes interview with Elan Musk last night. Interesting view of the world.
I don't follow the Musk story closely, so that 60 Minutes interview was interesting.

Stahl presses him on missed deadlines, isn't that dishonest? Musk says he's just guessing anyway, ignorance not deception.
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