Thoughts on TESLA

[oneill225]

Kelley Blue Book Review of the Model 3:

https://insideevs.com/kelley-blue-bo...model-3-video/

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eroscott Points: a) No reason for "domination" hyperboles as there is plenty of room in for many car companies at various prices points. More EVs by all players is what the goal is and Tesla has stated that many time in many ways (articles, interviews, blogs, etc). b) Average cost of cars is the low to mid 30s so plenty of room for sales and profit. Above I point out they are making the based Model 3 and Model Y in China (see tweets and article searches just a few post up). https://i.imgur.com/IVI8Oc1.jpg c) Tesla had a road map to put out luxary cars and then get to lower priced cars ($30Ks). 2006 Tesla roadmap: https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-te...een-you-and-me 2016 Tesla roadmap: https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux

Just now, I happened to see a quick video history of Tesla on Yahoo that said the above plan was written by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning, the founders of Tesla. They were shouldered out by Musk who invested money. Musk first took the chairman seat of the board as the lead investor, then took control of the company.

Earlier, I read another article that chronicles the early years of Tesla. It describes how Musk overstepped his responsibility of the chairmanship, and interfered with the design of the initial Roadster, causing further delay. At press conferences, Musk was jealous when the two founders got more publicity than he did, rightfully so. Sounded very much like Musk, alright.

[Texas Proud]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound Not true. Many do not have an opinion about the stock, such as myself, and choose to stand on the sideline. Neither long nor short the stock.

Unless you count the shares held in a MF... I would bet that a good number of MFs hold Tesla...


Since it is part of an index I have some...

[eroscott]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Unless you count the shares held in a MF... I would bet that a good number of MFs hold Tesla... Since it is part of an index I have some...

Examples below. Let me know more others have found?

Vanguard: https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/...selectedFunds=
Fidelity: https://search.fidelity.com/search/g...001&MFff=tesla

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eroscott Examples below. Let me know more others have found? Vanguard: https://advisors.vanguard.com/VGApp/...selectedFunds= Fidelity: https://search.fidelity.com/search/g...001&MFff=tesla

So I own about 0.10% Tesla stock in 2 (of my 11) Vanguard funds. Didn’t know it, but not at all surprised, I can live with the exposure.

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad "Why should any government encourage their use?" Turn on your vehicle, stand behind it, and inhale deeply. You'll get your reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound Gotta be careful, or we will be like Germany with its coal plants burning dirty brown coal called lignite to make electricity. Coal plants still produce 37% of their electricity, in fact. See photo below. Maybe we can get Mexico to produce that electricity for us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totoro That's not an EV consequence, but a consequence of shutting down nuclear power after Fukushima.

I did not mean that Germany has to burn a lot of coal because of EVs, which they do not yet have a lot of, thank goodness.

What I meant was that to encourage more use of electricity without knowing where it comes from, well, look at Germany!

[NW-Bound]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NW-Bound Not true. Many do not have an opinion about the stock, such as myself, and choose to stand on the sideline. Neither long nor short the stock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Proud Unless you count the shares held in a MF... I would bet that a good number of MFs hold Tesla... Since it is part of an index I have some...

Tesla as a company is OK with me. Musk, I do not care about.

Still, I do not hate him enough to research how much of Tesla stock I have in MFs, in order to short some shares to cancel it out.

[ERD50]

A while back, I mentioned that a friend of mine bought a Tesla Model S, and I said I'd update the thread when I got a chance to get a ride and get some info from him.

So they picked us up this w/e and we went out to dinner. So only about a 10 minute ride each way, so this is really a mini-mini impression/review. And keep in mind, even though I'm interested in technology, and know a fair amount about cars, I just never got the bug to own a performance car. To me, a car is something to spend the least amount of money on to get me reliably from A to B in reasonable comfort and safety. I don't think of cars as status symbols, I just don't care about that.

He mentioned that he got the S because he didn't like the Model 3, he said the interior looked like something out of a Dodge Neon (his words, not mine). As we got in the car, his wife warned us that she had got her hand caught in the door handle a couple times, be careful. I didn't really know what that was about, but thought it was kinda weird.

He showed off some of the novelty gimmicks, which I thought were pretty cheesy (fart sounds for turn signal, 'Santa' mode' with sleigh bells for turn signals - oh well, whatever floats your boat). He was consuming ~ 425 wh/mile on our little trip.

He said the regen braking had only 2 settings (3 with 'off'?) and he really wanted something in the middle. Maybe a future SW upgrade? He talked about how you end up doing 'one pedal' driving, as you feather the accel pedal to control braking, and only apply brakes near the end of a stop. We discussed whether this might create a problem in an emergency - if you are thinking about using your right foot as active braking on the accel pedal, in an emergency, might you just stomp on the accel instead of moving to the brake pedal? After all, your brain is already thinking "I'm braking". He thought it might be a problem. And considering you'd be at 60 mph in a few seconds, that could be a big problem very fast! (if it were to happen).

As far as the quietness of an EV, there were only two times I noticed it. Not at road speeds, I expect a $70,000+ car to be pretty quiet, and we heard road and wind noise. I can't say it was noticeable quieter than any decently quiet car with an ICE. Even my lower end car does not produce much engine noise while cruising.

So of course, we had to experience the accel. This surprised me - he hit it, and my reaction was, literally - "is that all there is"? Yes, I was pushed back in my seat, and I know it accel faster than any car I'd ever been in, but w/o engine noise, it just did not seem exciting. A personal thing I guess, some will miss it, others will think it's cool to accel w/o the "rrrrrooooaarrrrr". But again, I don't understand why anyone wants sub 4 second 0-60 times in a street vehicle anyhow, I'm just not the target audience for that.

The only other time I was aware of 'quiet' was when they dropped us off, and there was no idling engine sound. Again, to me, kind of a pro/con thing, it makes a bystander sort of unaware that there is an active car nearby. I recall discussions about having EVs make some artificial noise to keep pedestrians aware of their presence, have not heard about that lately.

He did a short example of Auto-pilot. He and his wife (it is actually her car) were sort of not thrilled with it. They said it keeps you right in the middle of the lane and that felt awkward to them, I guess with no oncoming traffic, we tend to move a bit to the middle to avoid stuff on the side of the road? Not quite sure about their issue with that, but they seemed to not want to trust it much. Maybe they need more time with it.

His wife actually prefers her GMC truck. That's not a knock against a Model S, they are just different vehicles, and she likes sitting up high. But maybe it's telling that the Tesla didn't impress her so much that she fell in love with it?

My wife also likes higher vehicles, we both thought it was a little hard to get in/out of the S. But that's compared to our crossover style cars.

He has had it glitch out on him about 3x a week, radio stuck, heat full on, indicates it is in Park but it is in Reverse, lots of odd things that required the extended "Control-Alt-Delete" procedure to clear up. The latest when he was backing into the garage. He almost hit the wall before he realized the sensors had glitched out, and were not giving him the warning that he was near the back wall. He seems to think this will 'clear up', as he heard that was the case with someone else he knows with a Tesla, but I told him he's got the SW updates that they probably got at the time, so there is something wrong.

His wife mentioned that her boss also has a Tesla, and he had to unexpectedly leave it parked in the lot at work for a few days in the cold. Battery was so low, he needed some sort of service to come and get it going for him before he could get it to a charger.

He will be taking it on a longer trip soon, where he needs to rely on a Supercharger. We'll see how that goes.

He didn't seem to think there any fit-finish issues like we've heard about with recent Model 3s. And he seems to like it, said if he gets another it will have Ludicrous mode. So he's really into the performance end of it, not sure anything else really matters much to him. He has another Cobra kit car, no heater, no radio, etc - just an engine, shell, seats and wheels. Different strokes, and all.

When we got out of the restaurant, I asked him to 'summon' the car. He said he didn't think it would work more than ~ 50 feet away? Or maybe he just didn't trust it? I kidded him that I can 'summon' my car too, as long as I can walk up to it.

I'll be curious what he thinks after he has more time with it. Like I said, I'm just not interested in spending that much for a car, so it doesn't mean much to me.

But I will still be watching future EV developments. I know some here think I'm anti-EV, but I'm not. I just don't like to let questionable information/claims go unchallenged, regardless the subject. We will probably replace DWs car in a few years - maybe a lower priced EV on the market by then would fit our needs? I've always felt that there are many things that are attractive about EVs, and when the cost comes down to our range, they will be in consideration. But I still hesitate over things like depreciation (if newer models come down in price as much as the fans expect), and battery life on lower cost models (I know Telsa batteries have held up well). And even though we don't drive much, and rarely take longer trips, the whole range thing still bugs me. Maybe I'm being pig-headed about that, but apples-to-apples with an ICE/hybrid, I just hate having this limitation, because you just never know when you might need it, and may not have the time to plan for it. It has happened to me before, just gas up and go.

So there you go, FWIW.

-ERD50

[aja8888]

ERD50, nice review. I have two retired friends (really "meetup" ones) who have Model S's and they are for the wife also. THey (the men) have lost enthusiasm for EV's with all of the limitations on long distance travel. The two guys drive pickups. Maybe it's the older crowd (us over 65) that can't get too worked up about these expensive toys?

A close friend's son just bought a Model 3 and said he will be bringing it to our morning coffee group soon to show it off. I'll certainly give it a close look over and report back if I get the chance.

Like you said, there may be a time when a used Leaf EV or similar may be of interest for us when only local travel is all we do, but for now, I like the convenience of gasoline and the ease of refueling.

[ncbill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 A while back, I mentioned that a friend of mine bought a Tesla Model S, and I said I'd update the thread when I got a chance to get a ride and get some info from him. So they picked us up this w/e and we went out to dinner. So only about a 10 minute ride each way, so this is really a mini-mini impression/review. And keep in mind, even though I'm interested in technology, and know a fair amount about cars, I just never got the bug to own a performance car. To me, a car is something to spend the least amount of money on to get me reliably from A to B in reasonable comfort and safety. I don't think of cars as status symbols, I just don't care about that. He mentioned that he got the S because he didn't like the Model 3, he said the interior looked like something out of a Dodge Neon (his words, not mine). As we got in the car, his wife warned us that she had got her hand caught in the door handle a couple times, be careful. I didn't really know what that was about, but thought it was kinda weird... He didn't seem to think there any fit-finish issues like we've heard about with recent Model 3s. And he seems to like it, said if he gets another it will have Ludicrous mode. So he's really into the performance end of it, not sure anything else really matters much to him. He has another Cobra kit car, no heater, no radio, etc - just an engine, shell, seats and wheels. Different strokes, and all... So there you go, FWIW. -ERD50

The above is why I've seen some "car guys" in their reviews recommend a used Model S over a new Model 3.

[Ready]

I’ve avoided buying the Model S because I just don’t need such a big car. I always had big cars while working so that I could take clients out to meals, but now that I’m retired I’d much rather have a smaller car that fits into tight parking spaces better.

Tesla is going to be upgrading the computer chips at some point, likely this year, with V3 autopilot hardware. It’s said to be an order of magnitude more powerful than the current hardware, which should make full self driving more realistic (at least from a technology standpoint). Regulatory approval is another issue.

Regarding ERD50s comments, it sounds like now is not the time for you to buy a Tesla, or any EV. If the technology in the car doesn’t impress you there’s no reason to spend the money.

I do believe that the core group of Tesla loyalists tend to be technology enthusiasts. They are the people that upgrade their phones every year, and buy the latest technology shortly after it comes out. If you are happy with your four year old smart phone, you probably could care less about what Tesla is doing right now.

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ready .... Regarding ERD50s comments, it sounds like now is not the time for you to buy a Tesla, or any EV. If the technology in the car doesn’t impress you there’s no reason to spend the money. I do believe that the core group of Tesla loyalists tend to be technology enthusiasts. They are the people that upgrade their phones every year, and buy the latest technology shortly after it comes out. If you are happy with your four year old smart phone, you probably could care less about what Tesla is doing right now.

I don't follow your thinking regarding technology and my decision to buy or not buy an EV. It is probably misplaced.

I am interested in tech, I do all sorts of techy things. But I don't care about "Autopilot", because I personally don't like the idea of a 'sort-of' SDC. As I've mentioned on that thread, if I can't 100% trust it, it would make me more nervous, I'd rather just take control all the time.

That said, I do like the 'assistance' features, like the blind spot detection, collision warnings, lane departure warnings, etc. that I have in my 2017 ICE. To me, that's just another set of eyes, in case you miss something while you are trying to be 100% the driver. And while those have triggered while I drive, they have never triggered on a situation that I wasn't already aware of and prepared for (disregarding a few false alarms like a lane departure while I intentionally and safely move over to avoid some junk on the side of the road, or a pedestrian). But just one warning in a lifetime that might avoid an accident could make them worthwhile.

So if/when I consider an EV to replace DW's car in few years, I'll be looking for that equivalent tech in an EV or ICE or hybrid. To me its a wash between them, I don't see any of that tech as being dependent on the power source.

From a drive-train standpoint, the tech I'm actually the most interested in is hybrid tech. I find it interesting how the ICE and battery/motor can be combined to use the strengths of each. That's an interesting engineering challenge with lots of options for optimization. But I'd be unlikely to to use that as a go-no-go buying decision, just curiosity.

-ERD50

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ready I do believe that the core group of Tesla loyalists tend to be technology enthusiasts. They are the people that upgrade their phones every year, and buy the latest technology shortly after it comes out. If you are happy with your four year old smart phone, you probably could care less about what Tesla is doing right now.

Sort of lines up with what Roger Penske thinks of EV’s in the near term. He thinks they’ll won’t be a factor in mainstream cars anytime soon, but they may become a big factor on higher end marques like Cadillac, MB, Audi, BMW and of course Tesla along with Jaguar, Volvo, etc. Historically most auto tech has trickled down from premium marques so it would make sense. He’s a smart guy and a big auto dealer, so he should have a good read...

He also kinda dismissed autonomous as much further away.

https://youtu.be/iddGH1W8AMo

It will be interesting to see how EVs impact the used car market as more and more hit the market.

[Mr. Tightwad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 A while back, I mentioned that a friend of mine bought a Tesla Model S, and I said I'd update the thread when I got a chance to get a ride and get some info from him. So they picked us up this w/e and we went out to dinner. So only about a 10 minute ride each way, so this is really a mini-mini impression/review. And keep in mind, even though I'm interested in technology, and know a fair amount about cars, I just never got the bug to own a performance car. To me, a car is something to spend the least amount of money on to get me reliably from A to B in reasonable comfort and safety. I don't think of cars as status symbols, I just don't care about that. He mentioned that he got the S because he didn't like the Model 3, he said the interior looked like something out of a Dodge Neon (his words, not mine). As we got in the car, his wife warned us that she had got her hand caught in the door handle a couple times, be careful. I didn't really know what that was about, but thought it was kinda weird. He showed off some of the novelty gimmicks, which I thought were pretty cheesy (fart sounds for turn signal, 'Santa' mode' with sleigh bells for turn signals - oh well, whatever floats your boat). He was consuming ~ 425 wh/mile on our little trip. He said the regen braking had only 2 settings (3 with 'off'?) and he really wanted something in the middle. Maybe a future SW upgrade? He talked about how you end up doing 'one pedal' driving, as you feather the accel pedal to control braking, and only apply brakes near the end of a stop. We discussed whether this might create a problem in an emergency - if you are thinking about using your right foot as active braking on the accel pedal, in an emergency, might you just stomp on the accel instead of moving to the brake pedal? After all, your brain is already thinking "I'm braking". He thought it might be a problem. And considering you'd be at 60 mph in a few seconds, that could be a big problem very fast! (if it were to happen). As far as the quietness of an EV, there were only two times I noticed it. Not at road speeds, I expect a $70,000+ car to be pretty quiet, and we heard road and wind noise. I can't say it was noticeable quieter than any decently quiet car with an ICE. Even my lower end car does not produce much engine noise while cruising. So of course, we had to experience the accel. This surprised me - he hit it, and my reaction was, literally - "is that all there is"? Yes, I was pushed back in my seat, and I know it accel faster than any car I'd ever been in, but w/o engine noise, it just did not seem exciting. A personal thing I guess, some will miss it, others will think it's cool to accel w/o the "rrrrrooooaarrrrr". But again, I don't understand why anyone wants sub 4 second 0-60 times in a street vehicle anyhow, I'm just not the target audience for that. The only other time I was aware of 'quiet' was when they dropped us off, and there was no idling engine sound. Again, to me, kind of a pro/con thing, it makes a bystander sort of unaware that there is an active car nearby. I recall discussions about having EVs make some artificial noise to keep pedestrians aware of their presence, have not heard about that lately. He did a short example of Auto-pilot. He and his wife (it is actually her car) were sort of not thrilled with it. They said it keeps you right in the middle of the lane and that felt awkward to them, I guess with no oncoming traffic, we tend to move a bit to the middle to avoid stuff on the side of the road? Not quite sure about their issue with that, but they seemed to not want to trust it much. Maybe they need more time with it. His wife actually prefers her GMC truck. That's not a knock against a Model S, they are just different vehicles, and she likes sitting up high. But maybe it's telling that the Tesla didn't impress her so much that she fell in love with it? My wife also likes higher vehicles, we both thought it was a little hard to get in/out of the S. But that's compared to our crossover style cars. He has had it glitch out on him about 3x a week, radio stuck, heat full on, indicates it is in Park but it is in Reverse, lots of odd things that required the extended "Control-Alt-Delete" procedure to clear up. The latest when he was backing into the garage. He almost hit the wall before he realized the sensors had glitched out, and were not giving him the warning that he was near the back wall. He seems to think this will 'clear up', as he heard that was the case with someone else he knows with a Tesla, but I told him he's got the SW updates that they probably got at the time, so there is something wrong. His wife mentioned that her boss also has a Tesla, and he had to unexpectedly leave it parked in the lot at work for a few days in the cold. Battery was so low, he needed some sort of service to come and get it going for him before he could get it to a charger. He will be taking it on a longer trip soon, where he needs to rely on a Supercharger. We'll see how that goes. He didn't seem to think there any fit-finish issues like we've heard about with recent Model 3s. And he seems to like it, said if he gets another it will have Ludicrous mode. So he's really into the performance end of it, not sure anything else really matters much to him. He has another Cobra kit car, no heater, no radio, etc - just an engine, shell, seats and wheels. Different strokes, and all. When we got out of the restaurant, I asked him to 'summon' the car. He said he didn't think it would work more than ~ 50 feet away? Or maybe he just didn't trust it? I kidded him that I can 'summon' my car too, as long as I can walk up to it. I'll be curious what he thinks after he has more time with it. Like I said, I'm just not interested in spending that much for a car, so it doesn't mean much to me. But I will still be watching future EV developments. I know some here think I'm anti-EV, but I'm not. I just don't like to let questionable information/claims go unchallenged, regardless the subject. We will probably replace DWs car in a few years - maybe a lower priced EV on the market by then would fit our needs? I've always felt that there are many things that are attractive about EVs, and when the cost comes down to our range, they will be in consideration. But I still hesitate over things like depreciation (if newer models come down in price as much as the fans expect), and battery life on lower cost models (I know Telsa batteries have held up well). And even though we don't drive much, and rarely take longer trips, the whole range thing still bugs me. Maybe I'm being pig-headed about that, but apples-to-apples with an ICE/hybrid, I just hate having this limitation, because you just never know when you might need it, and may not have the time to plan for it. It has happened to me before, just gas up and go. So there you go, FWIW. -ERD50

You can listen to the fellow who pretty much daily badmouths EV's, and insults those that think differently than him.

Or you can believe the actual Tesla owners: Christine, Ready, Euroscott, ClifP, and myself. Who actually know what we are talking about. Who all say how amazing their Tesla's are.

The above review reads like an amazon review, where its clear they want everyone not to purchase the product (because they are a competitor).

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad You can listen to the fellow who pretty much daily badmouths EV's, and insults those that think differently than him. Or you can believe the actual Tesla owners: Christine, Ready, Euroscott, ClifP, and myself. Who actually know what we are talking about. Who all say how amazing their Tesla's are. The above review reads like an amazon review, where its clear they want everyone not to purchase the product (because they are a competitor).

You are simply wrong. I don't care if anyone buys or doesn't buy a Tesla. I did not try to talk my friend out of it. Show me a post where I "badmouth" EVs. I do talk about the facts and figures about them, I don't believe I've ever "badmouthed" them. Maybe you think my facts are "badmouthing"? Well, I can't help that. Facts are facts. I posted what we discussed and observed during our drive. That's all.

Insults? That twice you've accused me of that now (also in the other thread). Show me. Or please apologize.

At any rate, today I remembered something else the Tesla owner said. She commutes about 20-30 minutes each way to work. She said she became aware of how often she unconsciously would look at the gas gauge of her GMC. But since her Tesla tops off at home each night, and her commute is well within the car's range, she doesn't think about it (until she finds herself looking for a 'gas gauge' in the Tesla! ).

Maybe a small thing, but it is nice.

-ERD50

[Midpack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Tightwad You can listen to the fellow who pretty much daily badmouths EV's, and insults those that think differently than him. Or you can believe the actual Tesla owners: Christine, Ready, Euroscott, ClifP, and myself. Who actually know what we are talking about. Who all say how amazing their Tesla's are. The above review reads like an amazon review, where its clear they want everyone not to purchase the product (because they are a competitor).

+1. Why would someone who clearly has zero interest *** in owning anything remotely like a Tesla Model S think others would be interested in a lengthy review of the car, especially after a 20 minute ride in one? Couldn't find a single good feature of any substance.

*** 'I just never got the bug to own a performance car. To me, a car is something to spend the least amount of money on to get me reliably from A to B in reasonable comfort and safety. I don't think of cars as status symbols, I just don't care about that.'

[Ronstar]

I’ve seen a lot more Teslas in my Arizona locale than in my Illinois locale. Probably more Teslas in North Scottsdale than Chevys. I like the looks of the model S, not so much the model X. I don’t know if I’ve seen a Model 3.

I’ve been following Casey Neistat on YouTube for a while. He recently bought a Tesla S. Now he’s reviewed the model 3. https://youtu.be/1gTBZyGJyQc

[Ready]

One of my favorite features of our Model 3 (and all Teslas) is the ability to log into the car through an IPhone app and see exactly where the car is, what direction it’s traveling, and at what speed. I never have to ask DH what time he will be home for dinner anymore. I just peak at the app and I know exactly where he is.

Do any other cars have this feature? It seems like it would be relatively simple to implement.

[Ronstar]

^Supershuttle vans have that feature. When I make reservations for a trip to the airport, I get a text in advance of the pickup showing a map with the van’s location. Same thing at the airport. I check in via text. I get a text back showing a map with my location and the location of the van. I do not get the van’s speed though.

[bobandsherry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ready One of my favorite features of our Model 3 (and all Teslas) is the ability to log into the car through an IPhone app and see exactly where the car is, what direction it’s traveling, and at what speed. I never have to ask DH what time he will be home for dinner anymore. I just peak at the app and I know exactly where he is. Do any other cars have this feature? It seems like it would be relatively simple to implement.

The Waze app has similar feature, I can send my ETA to friends and they can see where I'm at. So basically any car can have that feature.