Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-31-2010, 10:29 AM   #221
Recycles dryer sheets
Tigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
If at some point that fear doesn't become reality, then the price of gold will look like Wile E. Coyote (Super Genius).

Sure, but if something would happen to the USD or the financial system, those who blindly trusted them who look like Wile E. Coyote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
The gold story starts with a few facts and then jumps into speculation. (...) The speculation is that eventually the monetary and fiscal stimulus works and those reserves get multiplied into money. Naturally, in this telling, global central banks sit on their hands as inflation rages out of control. In some versions central banks not only sit on their hands but abandon all independence and aggressively monetize sovereign debt turning high inflation into hyperinflation. According to many versions this worse case scenario is not only a base-case, it is "inevitable" . . . Zimbabwe here we come!

But actual events aren't playing out according to script.
Trusting your entire nest egg to the USD and the financial system is speculating on its unscathed survival. History is full of examples of failed currencies, central banks and private banks. Although bad things always seem to happen to others, the USA isn't immune to this kind of problems (nor the EU). It is of course impossible to tell if problems will arise during our lifetime (and when exactly), but I wouldn't call the current situation reassuring. Therefore I can understand people who have decided to hedge their bets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
Inflation is still trending downward.
Many "experts" predict inflation, many others predict deflation.

It is my impression that we can't predict future inflation, that we can only try to estimate it in retrospect. Reality is complex. There are many inflationary and deflationary factors at work and I think it's impossible to measure and compare their individual effect, so as to determine their cumulative net effect.

My conclusion: don't bet the farm on any scenario, try to be diversified against many types of risk. (I'm currently not diversified enough)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
In 2008 all the forces of government were used to stop the financial collapse, with good effect.
I think it's a bit soon to draw conclusions.

We're going from bubble to bubble to bubble and the solution is more government debt, preventing insolvent companies from failing, pumping consumption back up to "normal" (=bubble) levels? I would feel safer in a world built on solvency, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
Japan here we come!
Let's hope not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good View Post
Oh, and a final message to Wile E. . . . look out below.
We're all someone's Wile E. Coyote.
__________________

__________________
Tigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 05-31-2010, 10:43 AM   #222
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
Quote:
Trusting your entire nest egg to the USD and the financial system is speculating on its unscathed survival. History is full of examples of failed currencies, central banks and private banks. ... the USA isn't immune to this kind of problems (nor the EU). ... Therefore I can understand people who have decided to hedge their bets.
I completely fail to understand this line of reasoning. IF you are guarding against complete systemic breakdown of the financial system, why are you doing it with an investment in gold, which requires a functioning financial system to redeem and access your "investment" Surely you don't believe that you will be bartering or paying your rent in gold bars. Maybe you would be better off investing in cigarettes, clean water and ammunition.
__________________

__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 10:46 AM   #223
Recycles dryer sheets
Tigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
I completely fail to understand this line of reasoning. IF you are guarding against complete systemic breakdown of the financial system, why are you doing it with an investment in gold, which requires a functioning financial system to redeem and access your "investment" Surely you don't believe that you will be bartering or paying your rent in gold bars. Maybe you would be better off investing in cigarettes, clean water and ammunition.
I'm not exclusively talking about Mad Max scenario's. :-)

In Argentina people who had gold in a safe place were the lucky ones. Having it in a foreign country was even better, because they could try to leave and start a new life elsewhere.
__________________
Tigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 12:09 PM   #224
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
I am not opposed to "insuring" against calamities. I do want to be sure that I understand what scenario I am protecting against, so I can understand whether the protection I am buying will really be effective. I am not satisfied with the simple notion that if I am fearful I should buy gold. I want to know what I actually intend to accomplish with such an investment. If I understand your suggestion, you think gold is a good hedge against the collapse of financial institutions in the US and dollar values, as long as viable economies and financial institutions continue to function elsewhere. Possibly allowing emigration.

I would not rank this as a very likely scenario. If it were, I would be concerned that in order to be an effective hedge, my gold account would have to be large enough to support me in this possible future, as well as well placed enough to pick the "right" location to insulate from near-global economic disaster. Perhaps I would actually need multiple accounts in multiple places to increase my likelihood of having a safe haven. Unless I have ample funds to cover my own FI, as well as possible FI in possible multiple locations, I do not see how this helps me. If I did have that kind of financial resources, I doubt I'd want to devote that much of it to such unlikely scenario.

Alternatively, if I am protecting against "Mad Max" scenarios, I'd rather invest in rural land, skills and equipment to farm it, and means to protect it (if I assume that with the demise of means of exchange will also come demise of law and order). Or if you are thinking some milder form of breakdown (think Katrina or Haiti) then perhaps I want to invest in useful trade goods (plus again a means to protect myself) and distribute my investments so that losing no one position will devastate me. I don't see how gold helps me in either case, except possibly if I think I can buy low now (really?) and sell high(er) later to make some money with it. Again, at record highs, this seems unlikely.
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 12:51 PM   #225
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
DblDoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,224
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone4Good
In 2008 all the forces of government were used to stop the financial collapse, with good effect.

I think it's a bit soon to draw conclusions.
I think we have enough hindsight now to understand it did prevent collapse. How much further it would have gone we could debate - personally I think it would have been much, much worse without the worldwide intervention that took place. What remains to be seen is how it unwinds. My crystal ball is cloudy but I get hints of prolonged slow growth interrupted with episodes of recession taking place in various regions around the world. My strategy remains in a diversified portfolio, save, save, save and LBYM.

DD
__________________
At 54% of FIRE target
DblDoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 01:19 PM   #226
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
I'm not exclusively talking about Mad Max scenario's. :-)

In Argentina people who had gold in a safe place were the lucky ones. Having it in a foreign country was even better, because they could try to leave and start a new life elsewhere.

But when I talk to the guy who buys into this at work.... I ask.... where are you going to go

If the US is is such a state that there is chaos in the streets and HAVING GOLD matters... which country is NOT going to be in the same situation.. and why do you think they will let YOU in... I mean, if this happens... there are a lot of richer people who can afford to get there easier than you... you will be stuck here with a bunch of gold... and nobody will want that gold... they will want food and water...

So it is not a complete breakdown... or even a major breakdown that you are protecting from.... so it has to be a big one, but not one that 'destroys' our way of life... again.... I don't think gold will help me... unless I have a LOT of it... I don't want to invest for that small possibility enough money to make a difference if it happens... I will adjust to the new reality...

And yes... it has happened a lot... but the countries where it has happened have continued on... Germany, Argentina, Russia and even Japan... I just don't buy into the doomsday possibility...
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 03:28 PM   #227
Recycles dryer sheets
Tigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
Warning: I do not suggest that anyone buy gold. I know someone who got burned big time the last time gold was in a bull market. He didn't get out in time and didn't live long enough to see it recover.
I'm just trying to explain why I think it makes sense to me to own some, especially at this time. It's a good diversifier but it has its disadvantages. It has gone up a lot and could go down a lot. If you want to buy some, I recommend using your time machine and buying it in 2001 ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
If I understand your suggestion, you think gold is a good hedge against the collapse of financial institutions in the US and dollar values, as long as viable economies and financial institutions continue to function elsewhere. Possibly allowing emigration.
(...)
I doubt I'd want to devote that much of it to such unlikely scenario.
My euros suffered a lot this year and it may not be over. Stocks are suffering. Real estate is not doing well. Banks are in trouble in Spain, maybe tomorrow in my country. Etc.
I personally don't care about the specifics of the catastrophes that might happen. Anything that causes a flight to safety would likely be good for my gold and compensate losses in other assets. (until the day that for one reason or another people don't want gold anymore, which is why I try not to overdo this) I lost buying power in my euros this year, but part of that loss was offset by gold moving up. I didn't own enough gold for it to compensate for all the buying power that my euros lost, but it's better than nothing and if things continue to worsen, gold will probably react much harder. (though I kind of expect extreme volatility and am aware that one day it will probably crater hard - by then I hope to have moved most of it into a more traditional portfolio)

Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
Alternatively, if I am protecting against "Mad Max" scenarios, I'd rather invest in rural land, skills and equipment to farm it, and means to protect it (if I assume that with the demise of means of exchange will also come demise of law and order). Or if you are thinking some milder form of breakdown (think Katrina or Haiti) then perhaps I want to invest in useful trade goods (plus again a means to protect myself) and distribute my investments so that losing no one position will devastate me. I don't see how gold helps me in either case, except possibly if I think I can buy low now (really?) and sell high(er) later to make some money with it. Again, at record highs, this seems unlikely.
I'm not especially preparing for this kind of situations, though it's nice to know that part of my money isn't just ones and zeroes in a computer that might disappear, but in a portable form that I could take elsewhere to build a new life. As interest rates are very low, so far I'm not losing much.

Wars do happen, my parents lived through the last war. It's one of the many reasons why it would be nice to have a big garden, but the risk seems low so I stay in a rental apartment until (hopefully) real estate becomes cheaper here. (prices are at a historic high; they may or may not go down from here; I'm hoping there will be a return to the mean)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DblDoc View Post
My strategy remains in a diversified portfolio, save, save, save and LBYM.
DD
Sounds great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
you will be stuck here with a bunch of gold... and nobody will want that gold... they will want food and water...
I don't own gold to help me survive in the short term. I own it hoping it will help to better preserve my capital in the long term. (until I find a better asset allocation or strategy). I'd try to get my food and water by different means, but not give up my gold.
Sooner or later things would improve and it would be nice not to have lost everything.
But if gold becomes illegal or crashes, I could lose it, yes. Therefore I don't bet the farm on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
And yes... it has happened a lot... but the countries where it has happened have continued on... Germany, Argentina, Russia and even Japan... I just don't buy into the doomsday possibility...
Most people have survived there, but many families have lost their wealth.
If I would wake up tomorrow and the euro would only be worth 1/3 of what it's worth today, my gold would probably mean that my chances at E-R might not be completely lost. (because gold would likely react very hard to such an event on such a scale) Same thing if the Eurozone would break up. I don't expect that to happen, but while it's improbable, it's technically not impossible.

We're each trying to cope with these strange days as good as we can.
Maybe I'll regret my choices and then you can tell me "told you so".
I'm trying to give it my best shot.
__________________
Tigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 03:36 PM   #228
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
I'm trying to give it my best shot.
This might be right up your alley: Montana Gold Bullet, Incorporated - Kalispell, Montana
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 03:52 PM   #229
Recycles dryer sheets
Tigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
Hehe.
__________________
Tigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 04:43 PM   #230
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
Quote:
My euros suffered a lot this year and it may not be over.
What You buy Euros? You buy gold?

Why not buy actual investments, like stocks, bonds, real estate and mutual funds. If you keep screwing around with commodities and currency arbitrage you are gambling, not investing.
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 04:49 PM   #231
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
What You buy Euros? You buy gold?

Why not buy actual investments, like stocks, bonds, real estate and mutual funds. If you keep screwing around with commodities and currency arbitrage you are gambling, not investing.
Hmmm, not sure I agree. There can be lots of good reasons some more esoteric strategies have attractive risk-reward mixes. For example, I have a modest allocation to merger arbitrage funds. These are specialty mutual funds that "pick up dimes in front of bulldozers" via merger spreads. They do so in a highly diversified and disciplined fashion and they generally offer mid to high single digit returns afterexpenses with low volatility and modest downside.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 05:01 PM   #232
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 5,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
These are specialty mutual funds that "pick up dimes in front of bulldozers" ...
I don't know what that means. This is the only other reference I can find:

Bulldozers.JPG

(The Predictors: How a Band of Maverick Physicists Used Chaos Theory to Trade Their Way to a Fortune on Wall Street)
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 05:39 PM   #233
Recycles dryer sheets
Tigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
What You buy Euros? You buy gold?
I'm a European living in Europe. This is why most of my money is in Euros.

I used to have real estate, but sold it in 2008 shortly before the real estate boom stalled here. Which is how I ended up in cash without any diversification.

My plan was to figure out the best way to build a diversified and balanced portfolio with passive stock and bond funds, but the market crashed before I figured out how I would do that. (we don't have Vanguard in my country, there is no cookie cutter solution; costs are high, tax rules for funds and ETFs are complex and few people know them)

Not being ready to invest in stocks or bonds, I started buying gold from time to time, to add some hard needed diversification and protection against some of the hazards of what seemed to become the worst crisis in generations. Meanwhile I continued to research investment strategies and assets available in the Eurozone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
Why not buy actual investments, like stocks, bonds, real estate and mutual funds. If you keep screwing around with commodities and currency arbitrage you are gambling, not investing.
I'm preparing to invest in ETFs, treasuries, real estate, etc. My plans aren't clear enough to move yet. So I wait and research my options.

I like the Boglehead approach. But the last decade has been harsh for many buy and hold investors and this crisis may offer unique chances to buy low. (and I may miss them, I'm well aware that market timing tends to be a bad idea)

Going all-in now would be a normal Boglehead strategy. But I need to be able to sleep and can't think of any stock/bond ratio that would let me sleep now. I've considered the Harry Browne Permanent Portfolio and would probably sleep better with it. But it's focused on wealth preservation and this may be the biggest opportunity of my life to buy low. Nobody knows the future, but I suspect chances are very high that we're going to get another serious leg down within less than a year. If it happens, I want to be ready to start buying. I realize that it may never happen and that I can't guess where the bottom is. I'm trying to figure out the least bad approach.

I may pay very dearly for my hubris. We'll see.
__________________
Tigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 05:48 PM   #234
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,136
Why not invest a small portion (20 - 30%) in equities and bonds now, in the event that 'serious down leg' doesn't come to pass? That way you will have at least invested some of your cash near the bottom while not risking the bulk of your cash if it does happen. Not exactly euro cost averaging, but something along the same lines.
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 05:54 PM   #235
Recycles dryer sheets
Tigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
Why not invest a small portion (20 - 30%) in equities and bonds now, in the event that 'serious down leg' doesn't come to pass? That way you will have at least invested some of your cash near the bottom while not risking the bulk of your cash if it does happen. Not exactly euro cost averaging, but something along the same lines.
That sounds reasonable. It is an option that I'll have to consider once I've chosen the ETFs to use for stocks and bonds.
__________________
Tigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 05:57 PM   #236
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,136
Careful you don't think yourself into gridlock and end up doing nothing while the world marches on - even though that can be a good option, it rarely is.
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 07:33 PM   #237
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
growing_older's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,608
Quote:
Hmmm, not sure I agree. There can be lots of good reasons some more esoteric strategies have attractive risk-reward mixes. For example, I have a modest allocation to merger arbitrage funds. These are specialty mutual funds that "pick up dimes in front of bulldozers" via merger spreads.
I certainly didn't mean that sophisticated investors shouldn't diversify as they see fit. Even into some of these more exotic vehicles. I'm assuming that they do so with a reasonably thought out plan and appropriate portion of the total portfolio. What I was reacting to was the general advice to plunge deeply into gold to avert Argentine catastrophe in your future financial life. Likewise, I was suggesting that if someone's past experience is limited to buying gold or currencies, and not buying other investments such as stocks or bonds, then I am not sure I call that experience investing. Maybe speculation. Perhaps gambling.

Similarly, assuming that you have had good experience with your snatching quarters in front of steamrollers strategy (I did not have such good experience with mine - or rather I did until that one time I got steamrolled) I doubt you would recommend it as the ONLY way people should invest in the future nor as the primary way they should protect themselves for all financial ills and disasters.
__________________
growing_older is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2010, 07:35 PM   #238
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: houston
Posts: 96
thanks for the many replies. i'm all out of arguments. i will just repeat something from earlier. gold is a much neglected asset class and enhances diversification.

holding only dollar (or euro..or other paper) based assets is a high risk gamble.

the chart i posted two weeks ago clearly shows paper vs gold cycles. we have been (and continue to be imo) in the gold portion of the cycle. the fact that this move has yet to reach the tech/real estate manias tells me there is plenty of room to run.

as for those that focus on my delivery - let's settle this now. i call it as i see it. i'm not afraid to make public mistakes. i am just giving my opinions. i welcome those that differ and enjoy lively, even combative banter. no hard feelings - ever!
__________________
endthefed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 04:29 AM   #239
Recycles dryer sheets
Tigger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
What I was reacting to was the general advice to plunge deeply into gold to avert Argentine catastrophe in your future financial life. Likewise, I was suggesting that if someone's past experience is limited to buying gold or currencies, and not buying other investments such as stocks or bonds, then I am not sure I call that experience investing. Maybe speculation. Perhaps gambling.
Indeed. What I'm doing now is part diversification, part speculation. The current situation lures people into speculation because rates are low, banks seem less safe than they used to and (in my eyes) there's a lack of "safe" assets.
As I didn't have an existant plan or fixed allocation to fall back on, I'm at great risk of making big mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by growing_older View Post
Similarly, assuminyg that you have had good experience with your snatching quarters in front of steamrollers strategy (I did not have such good experience with mine - or rather I did until that one time I got steamrolled) I doubt you would recommend it as the ONLY way people should invest in the future nor as the primary way they should protect themselves for all financial ills and disasters.
I agree.
__________________
Tigger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2010, 06:52 AM   #240
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Gone4Good's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 5,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by DblDoc View Post
I think we have enough hindsight now to understand it did prevent collapse.
Of course we do. It's obvious to anyone willing to look at the facts. But not everyone is. And that is because many people aren't conducting an economic analysis, they are engaging in political argument disguised as economic analysis. You see, government intervention couldn't have been beneficial because government is always bad. Don't you remember Ronald Reagan "Government isn't the solution, it's the problem"? Well that is a universal truth, to some. And it is applicable in every situation, without exception. So all you need know about the current crisis is that there was a massive government intervention and then you already know the outcome . . . it's very, very, very bad. We don't need to look at the facts. We don't need to consider how the decline was arrested and how all of the worst case predictions failed to materialize. All we have to do is project future calamity 10, 15, 20 years down the road. That way we can pretend forever that "it's too soon to tell". It's far easier to do that then to admit that your world view is flawed.
__________________

__________________
Retired early, traveling perpetually.
Gone4Good is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GOLD up up and ? JustMeUC FIRE and Money 26 11-27-2009 06:34 PM
Old Threads haha Forum Admin 6 04-08-2009 09:49 PM
Out of gold haha Stock Picking and Market Strategy 7 11-13-2007 07:06 PM
And gold, gold!, GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!! yakers FIRE and Money 1 05-17-2006 11:03 AM
Gold mb FIRE and Money 199 04-17-2006 06:40 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:24 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.