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Old 06-07-2010, 12:50 AM   #1
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Mexico: 6 bodies in cave, 3 with hearts cut out - Yahoo! News-
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Old 06-07-2010, 03:19 AM   #2
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:56 AM   #3
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Thanks for brightening my day.
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Old 06-07-2010, 08:12 AM   #4
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Thanks for brightening my day.
Funny, we'll be experiencing "white nights" in two weeks when we're in St. Pete's (Russia ).

Our night's will be as sunny as our days...

White Nights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hey, this is a travel thread, is it not?
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Old 06-07-2010, 09:21 AM   #5
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Haha,

Hope your not going to post every time a drug dealer gets killed over territory...or every time it rains in Hooverville!?

If you look at the amount of times uninvolved US or Canadian citizens get killed by drug related violence while on vacation in Mexico, as a percentage of visitors...you might not want to drive your car either.

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Old 06-07-2010, 11:29 AM   #6
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Haha,

Hope your not going to post every time a drug dealer gets killed over territory...or every time it rains in Hooverville!?

If you look at the amount of times uninvolved US or Canadian citizens get killed by drug related violence while on vacation in Mexico, as a percentage of visitors...you might not want to drive your car either.

E85
Well, IMO there is valid reason for wanting to know this. It is not something that everyone knows, and a quick review of past Mexican travel threads will show that they have made much of a turista-promoting but totally unfounded idea that "As long as you stay away from the border cities you are completely safe."

Rubbish! If I were thinking of a Mexican trip, I would prefer real facts to someone's wishful thinking or promotional activity. Unfortunately, wishing something does not make it so.


Ha
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:51 AM   #7
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Well, IMO there is valid reason for wanting to know this. It is not something that everyone knows, and a quick review of past Mexican travel threads will show that they have made much of a turista-promoting but totally unfounded idea that "As long as you stay away from the border cities you are completely safe."

Rubbish! If I were thinking of a Mexican trip, I would prefer real facts to someone's wishful thinking or promotional activity. Unfortunately, wishing something does not make it so.

But if you do find me me posting "every time a drug dealer gets killed over territory...or every time it rains in Hooverville!?" please save yourself some pain and put me on ignore.

Ha
Perhaps, but I was annoyed at the way it was presented. The posting with the title you gave it didn't give any context. Had you title it "Drug Violence Rages on in Mexico" or "New Trip advisory Needed for Mexico", I would have been perfectly fine and perhaps even thankful for the info. IMHO you were playing on the sensationalism of the event. If 3 of them hadn't has their hearts ripped out, I'm sure you wouldn't have posted it as drug related murders are common in developing countries and big western cities.

Yes tourist do get killed in foreign countries, especially in developing ones like Mexico and all of central america and the Caribbean. Much of it never makes it to the papers. To believe otherwise is no be naive. This does not prevent me from visiting most of these countries, while taking some precautions, as their are risks in everything. IMHO the risk of being collateral damage in a drug gang fight is very low in most of these countries. Likely somewhere in the range of crossing the street or driving my car...but I still do it.

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Old 06-07-2010, 02:05 PM   #8
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To get a fairly impartial view of current conditions in a place I may want to visit, I usually check out the State Department Travel Advisories.

The latest advisory on Mexico is here: Mexico

Here's the latest Security Update from the Embassy: :: US Embassy Mexico - Citizen Consular Services ::

Chapala is mentioned in that latter link (an armed attack occurred recently).

One area that I really liked visiting was Monterrey and it looks like conditions there have deteriorated a lot. I probably would not visit there today.

These links should provide a more accurate threat assessment versus a scary newspaper headline. We have dozens of murders in our metro area ever year, and bank robberies, rapes, car theft, armed robberies etc all happen as well. No area is immune to petty crime and violent crime.
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:23 PM   #9
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These links should provide a more accurate threat assessment versus a scary newspaper headline. We have dozens of murders in our metro area ever year, and bank robberies, rapes, car theft, armed robberies etc all happen as well. No area is immune to petty crime and violent crime.
You are abosolutely correct, but I believe it a false comparison. Your approved sources also are subject to lags, and political pressures.

Few of us routinely scale news events, or have the understanding to look beneath reported events.

In my opinion news is newsworthy, especially when it is, like this report, not a run of the mill occurance. Everyone knows that Tijuana and Juarez are apt to be nasty, but Cancun? Headless people- men, women and children have been found in many places in Mexico, but I guess we are too sophisticated for that to mean anything to us. People found in a cave with their hearts cut out? Has that happened even once wherever it is that you live? What I believe is especially meaningful here is that is if there is anything that the Mexican army and police would be expected to keep clean it is the gringo goldcoast. That they evidentally cannot means something.

This can be an extremely narrow-minded board. A major rule seems to be to resist anything that might make one uncomfortable in his suppositions.

It always interests me that another in a long line of commercially sourced frugality-porn articles is seen as very important (read edifying), while an undoubted piece of factual information almost always gets quite a bit of push-back.

For myself I find it easy enough to believe what I want to believe (that which is comfortable), so I try to look at other factual data when it comes along. But I apologize for bothering others with nasty reality.

Ha
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:43 PM   #10
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Ha, it sounds like those six found in the cave were related to the drug trade somehow (Zetas carved on their abdomens??). The other two shot at the quinceanera party were probably involved in the criminal game too. Gunfire erupted, then partygoers returned fire. At parties I go to (even the Asian gambling parties!!), guns are a rarity, and I don't think people would be "returning fire" if fired upon. I'm not trying to belittle the importance of news articles, since they are much more timely than a month old state department report. Just that if you want a general overview of the Mexico security situation and a way to figure out areas to avoid, it is a good source of information.

4 Killed in Florida Restaurant:
Florida restaurant shooting leaves 4 dead, 3 wounded - CNN.com

1 dead in Seattle shooting:
Local News | Family mourns man as witnesses describe deadly Belltown shooting | Seattle Times Newspaper

Odds of average person dying in a given year in a motor vehicle related death: 1 out of 7500. Since 2006, there have been about 6000 narcotics deaths per year in MX in a country of 90,000,000 or 1 in 15,000. You are twice as likely to die a motor vehicle related death in the US as dying a narcotics related death in MX. Add in generic armed robberies that result in death and I'll give you even odds?? Just trying to get some rational perspective on the probabilities.
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Old 06-07-2010, 02:56 PM   #11
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Ha, it sounds like those six found in the cave were related to the drug trade somehow (Zetas carved on their abdomens??). The other two shot at the quinceanera party were probably involved in the criminal game too. Gunfire erupted, then partygoers returned fire. At parties I go to (even the Asian gambling parties!!), guns are a rarity, and I don't think people would be "returning fire" if fired upon. I'm not trying to belittle the importance of news articles, since they are much more timely than a month old state department report. Just that if you want a general overview of the Mexico security situation and a way to figure out areas to avoid, it is a good source of information.

4 Killed in Florida Restaurant:
Florida restaurant shooting leaves 4 dead, 3 wounded - CNN.com

1 dead in Seattle shooting:
Local News | Family mourns man as witnesses describe deadly Belltown shooting | Seattle Times Newspaper

Odds of average person dying in a given year in a motor vehicle related death: 1 out of 7500. Since 2006, there have been about 6000 narcotics deaths per year in MX in a country of 90,000,000 or 1 in 15,000. You are twice as likely to die a motor vehicle related death in the US as dying a narcotics related death in MX. Add in generic armed robberies that result in death and I'll give you even odds?? Just trying to get some rational perspective on the risk factors.
Fuego mi amigo, I don't dispute your points, I only challenged their relevance to the problem at hand.

But I have no more interest in this matter, everyone can figure out for himself what is relevant to him. Point by point disputations are fun when you are 20, not so much years later.

Ha
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Old 06-07-2010, 03:01 PM   #12
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Ha, I'm just trying to provide additional evidence for consideration (the State Dept links). I think we are both fans of getting good facts and making decisions based on our analysis of those facts.

Besides, if you couldn't spend your time arguing on here you might be tempted to book a weekend junket to Tijuana!
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Old 06-07-2010, 03:08 PM   #13
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But I have no more interest in this matter, everyone can figure out for himself what is relevant to him. Point by point disputations are fun when you are 20, not so much years later.
That was fast - took only 14 hours from the original post to "no more interest."

An odd little thread.
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Old 06-07-2010, 03:08 PM   #14
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Everyone knows that Tijuana and Juarez are apt to be nasty, but Cancun? Headless people- men, women and children have been found in many places in Mexico, but I guess we are too sophisticated for that to mean anything to us. People found in a cave with their hearts cut out? Has that happened even once wherever it is that you live?
Actually there have been a number of related drug gang deaths in Cancun and the Acapulco areas.

As far as where I live...Here in Ontario Canada, crime rates are low and I am thankful for that. However, for an example, when I was in high school, a friend of mine was slightly injured after a motorcycle gang bombed a car on his street. Two women were killed (girlfriends of the intended targets). Drugs, Prostitution is their game too. The resent consolidation of biker gangs in parts of Quebec and Ontario has had many casualties...some bystanders.

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Old 06-07-2010, 03:12 PM   #15
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But I have no more interest in this matter...
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:43 PM   #16
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That was fast - took only 14 hours from the original post to "no more interest."

An odd little thread.
Yes, odd indeed. Don't misunderstand, I am still very interested in the story behind the people who had their hearts cut out. Here in Seattle, that is not yet an everyday occurrance. However I realize that other regions may be different.

Quote:
...it sounds like those six found in the cave were related to the drug trade somehow (Zetas carved on their abdomens??). The other two shot at the quinceanera party were probably involved in the criminal game too.
While I think that the quote above is most likely but not necessarily correct, it is nevertheless interesting. For those who may not know, a quinceanera is a coming of age party for a young girl, age 15 to be exact. Anything might have transpired, but it seems a stretch to assume that whoever was shot as at the moment of celebrating this young person's entry into womanhood was actively engaged in violence. Couldn't these murders and informal autopsies have been postponed for a few hours?

And cutting out hearts? I have read of this in African tribal warfare, but Mexico? I guess Jeffrey Dahmer did this kind of thing too, so maybe it is commonplace after all.

And what were these people doing that puts them outside of the human group for whom we presumably are supposed to feel sadness and horror when their hearts are cut out?

They were (it is suggested) supplying the Great American Drug Trade. A business which has been created by Western Society, and especially by American society. Its very profitable price structure is maintained by American laws and Coast Guard and police forces at every level; thus by the American taxpayer. Our major current client state, Afghanistan, is the 800 pound guerilla among sources of the international opium trade, also supported at the cost of much life and gold by the American public.
So we created this class of people for whom we are excused from having any human feelings when their hearts are cut out.

I am quite interested in this topic and its many sociological, political, psychological and moral ramifications, just not in continuing a debate about it.

Ha
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Old 06-07-2010, 05:18 PM   #17
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Yes, odd indeed. Don't misunderstand, I am still very interested in the story behind the people who had their hearts cut out. Here in Seattle, that is not yet an everyday occurrance. However I realize that the South is different.

I also am interested in comments like this While I think that the quote above is most likely but not necessarily correct, it is nevertheless interesting. For those who may not know, a quinceanera is a coming of age party for a young girl, age 15 to be exact. Anything might have transpired, but it seems a stretch to assume that whoever was shot as at the moment of celebrating this young person's entry into womanhood was actively engaged in violence. Couldn't these murders and informal autopsies have been postponed for a few hours?

And cutting out hearts? I have read of this in African tribal warfare, but Mexico?

And what were these people doing that puts them outside of the human group for whom we presumably are supposed to feel sadness and horror when their hearts are cut out?

They were (according to Fuego) supplying the great American Drug Trade. A business which has been created by Western society, and especially American society. Its price structure is maintained by American laws and Coast Guard and police forces at every level; thus by the American taxpayer. So we created this class of people for whom we are excused from having any human feelings when their hearts are cut out.

So you see, I am quite interested in this topic and its many sociological, political, psychological and moral ramifications, just not in continuing a debate at this particular venue any longer.

Ha
Cutting their hearts out is simply a message of terror...I doubt there is anything more meaningful to it than that.

About caring for these lost souls that feed the drug demand of the west...perhaps a confirmation that the current ways of dealing with this is not working. When you outlaw anything that still has demand, you drive it underground. At that point organized crime moves in. Nothing new here either as our countries won't do anything meaningful to correct these imbalances.

This article I find far more important BBC News - Mexico 'mass grave' has 77 bodies

To me, this raises the questions, is the government still in control of all regions and is Mexico descending into civil war? I believe the answers at this point are No and No. This is something Columbia has gone through (and continues to)...I believe the current Mexican government will prevail as it is a confidence issue and thus put their government on the hook for it. But the problem runs very deep and I hope the people of Mexico have the patience as it will take time, much determination and unfortunately many more lives. I hope our governments support them in every way possible, because if they fail, it will become more relevant to us than the war in Afghanistan.

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Old 06-07-2010, 08:51 PM   #18
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And cutting out hearts? I have read of this in African tribal warfare, but Mexico? I guess Jeffrey Dahmer did this kind of thing too, so maybe it is commonplace after all.

And what were these people doing that puts them outside of the human group for whom we presumably are supposed to feel sadness and horror when their hearts are cut out?
Could be a throwback to Aztec and/or Mayan civilizations that dominated various parts of Mexico during various pre-colombian periods. Human sacrifice that involved ripping out the still beating hearts were part of the worship of these two groups I believe.

As to feeling loss or sorrow for participants in drug gangs? On a human level, of course. But the adults at least knew the rules of the game and those affiliated with them are faced with the choice of the risk of violence or leaving the family.
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Old 06-07-2010, 09:29 PM   #19
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Hey, if I had posted this topic I would have received a terse note asking "what does this have to do with ER?"
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Old 06-07-2010, 09:45 PM   #20
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Hey, if I had posted this topic I would have received a terse note asking "what does this have to do with ER?"
And if my uncle had been born female, he would be my aunt. You didn't and you didn't.
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