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Old 01-05-2013, 11:05 AM   #21
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I think the appeal of living in Europe would be the ability to go anywhere within a 2 hour flight or a reasonable train ride.

So I'd be curious about the air and rail options from the center of the country.

I browsed this one site featuring properties in Italy and they listed how far they were from an airport. Seemed like those less than an hour away from an airport tended to be more expensive.

Similarly, I know I can save money moving from CA to neighboring NV or AZ but getting on an international flight would be more of a hassle.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:47 AM   #22
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IMHO I still think Belize is the ideal place to retire. I like the fact it is English speaking and the money is 1 USD to 2 Belizian Dollars for easy conversion. To me it is like the midwest of my youth in the 1950s. It is slower paced, not greatly technologically advanced, and has downtowns with "mom & pop" stores. People are friendly and welcoming. One day I make make the permanent move.
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I also like Belize but am not sure I would ever be able to qualify for permanent residency there: Last I checked, you had to spend 50 of 52 weeks in country during the process; and, I cannot remember the last time I spent 50 of 52 weeks in any single country. Do you know if this requirement has changed or is different for expat retirees?

Personally, I would be uncomfortable considering a location for full time retirement unless I could obtain permanent residency.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:49 AM   #23
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I have a love/hate relationship with Nicaragua. I spent the past few years there on and off. Probably 15 months total. Anyone want to know anything in particular let me know.

I have spent time in each of the other countries listed except for Malta and Uruguay and can give some input about them them also but certainly not to the extent I can Nicaragua. So many pluses and minuses to all locations.

I will say that the Central Highlands of Mexico probably come out on the top of my list for many reasons.
Living in Nicaragua sounds like an excellent topic for a new thread. I know that I am very interested in your experiences; and, I have no doubt that at least a few (and, possibly many) others here would also be interested.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:01 PM   #24
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This is referring to Mexico:


(Rent a comfortable, mid-sized house in Mexico for about $800 a month, while $1,500 can get you a large colonial or a chic beachside apartment. Looking to buy? You can still find comfortable homes for around $150,000, depending on the town.)


I see things like this about foreign retirement and wonder just what the appeal is. You get these prices in the U.S. for the most part. I don't know about beach side apartment rent though. Never priced it.

You can find comfortable homes in the U.S. for less than 150K. I live in one. There is nothing on my street any higher. Article must be written by a New Yorker or someone in another high cost area. Thinks 150K is real cheap.

I would never retire overseas but I would like to know just how cheap is it really? Then compare to a small midwestern U.S. town. I think many would be surprised.
I am from a small midwestern U.S. town and have recently started looking into longer term rentals in Mexico; so, I have some ready comparisons:
  • For around $500/month, I can rent a small 1-2 bedroom house in my home town without utilities.
  • For less than $300/month, also without utilities, I can rent a similar size newly constructed home in a working class town/subdivision/development 20 minutes outside of Cancun.
So, as you suspect, rental costs are not really that dramatically cheaper for the area that currently interests me the most. But, costs for medical care, eating out, any kind of labor (maid, laundry, etc.), etc. are dramatically cheaper. And, the house in Mexico is less than 2 miles from several beautiful public beaches.

Electricity costs can be quite high in Mexico; but, I run my air conditioner very little; so, I am not concerned about that.

A high-end US style condo on the beach air conditioned to less than 80 degrees would no doubt be much more expensive than living in a small midwestern U.S. town; but, I imagine living that same lifestyle in Miami or San Diego would be even more expensive than doing so in Mexico.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:12 PM   #25
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I just glanced at the articles and its not clear how accessible these countries are. For instance, Spain could be appealing for health care. But will they let non citizens into their system?
Health care is important. It seems a lot of times when I read these articles about how appealing it is to retire abroad, they rarely talk about health care. Yes, one can buy private health insurance but that assumes there are no pre-existing conditions involved. About 6 weeks ago the Spanish government came out with a proposal (not a new law) to allow foreigners getting a resident VISA as long as they purchased property for at least 160,000 Euros.

In an attempt to offload debts crippling Spanish banks, the nation's government will offer residency rights to foreign property buyers who spend more than more than 160,000 euros
http://www.news.com.au/realestate/foreign-property-buyers-offered-residency/story-fncq3era-1226521680304

However, I haven't found any information as to whether getting a resident VISA allows access to the Spanish health care system.

Furthermore, my understanding is that they don't recognize tax deferrals in Spain. In other words, if one has an IRA or a ROTH IRA one would have to pay regular income taxes on the gains in these accounts. This would seem to be a big drawback to a move to Spain for anybody with a decent IRA/ROTH IRA.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:22 PM   #26
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Wait, you would have retirement accounts in US institutions and making withdraws on them and they'd want to tax you?

I understand Italy will offer retirement visas to those who can show assets. But never occurred to me that they'd want to tax those assets somehow.

For that, I'd expect full citizenship and health care benefits.

Otherwise, you can go 3 months at a time, come back for a few months, go back ...
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:32 PM   #27
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Wait, you would have retirement accounts in US institutions and making withdraws on them and they'd want to tax you?
Sorry for not being more clear. No, as I understand it, withdrawals are tax-free in Spain per the tax treaty. Instead, it is the gains within the IRA's each year that are taxable as ordinary income in Spain.

They treat those accounts as regular taxable accounts. Bear in mind, I haven't talked to an accountant in Spain about this. I got my information from two American expats who have moved there. I guess their IRA's weren't big enough to worry about when they decided to move there.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:36 PM   #28
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If you hold the accounts in US institutions, how would Spain know?

It's not like they're going to send tax forms to the Spanish govt.

I guess it depends on what you get for the residency status. If health care is included, you'd have to weigh that against the tax burden.

I think foreigners buy in popular places like Italy and Spain but don't bother to get status. So they'll spend a couple of months there at a time rather than live year round.
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Old 01-05-2013, 02:45 PM   #29
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If you hold the accounts in US institutions, how would Spain know?

It's not like they're going to send tax forms to the Spanish govt.

I guess it depends on what you get for the residency status. If health care is included, you'd have to weigh that against the tax burden.

I think foreigners buy in popular places like Italy and Spain but don't bother to get status. So they'll spend a couple of months there at a time rather than live year round.
I doubt that Spain would know today. I think they depend on you being honest. On the other hand, with the IRS being more and more aggressive and dependent on foreign entities, I have to assume that foreign countries would eventually want something in return. In this case, perhaps Spain would eventually ask the IRS to share their returns filed in the US of US expats being residents of Spain. I'm just guessing...

Living in places like Italy and Spain without getting status would be a good alternative. The only drawback would be health care. With no pre-existing condition, there should not be much of a problem. But if you have one, I don't see how it would work.
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Old 01-05-2013, 03:32 PM   #30
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I only wish I had the courage to retire abroad or I'd never read these articles, but I'm not kidding myself. Even if I could muster the courage, DW would be waving goodbye as I left (a bad thing). So as a PSA to those more adventurous (I'm jealous)...

1. Ecuador
2. Panama
3. Malaysia
4. Mexico
5. Costa Rica
6. Uruguay
7. Columbia
8. Spain
9. Thailand
10. Malta

There is a persistent annoying pop-up with both links, though it seemed to stop after I closed it several times.

In Pictures: The Top 10 Best Places to Retire in 2013

The World
I have studied this issue for many years, on the internet, reading, talking with people and in some cases, visiting the country.
1. Ecuador--maybe. health care questionable.
2. Panama--once, maybe; today, no.
3. Malaysia--maybe, but not my hemisphere
4. Mexico--first choice for outside the US
5. Costa Rica--no. Panama before CR. CR is increasingly antagonistic to expat retirees. They are moving to Panama.
6. Uruguay--no. Attractive, but the more you look at it, the less you will like it.
7. Columbia--attractive but too, too dangerous. NO! Maybe Cartegena.
8. Spain--maybe. A 25% unemployment rate is not good.
9. Thailand--not for me.
10. Malta--maybe. kinda boring, though. another beach town. uncertain health care.

Belize: neat, but boring. How long can you live in a beach town? health care not attractive.
Chile: Arica (for example), maybe.
Peru: maybe. Centrally located, food as good as Mexico.
Bolivia: Tarija. Maybe.
Argentina: Mendosa. Maybe.
Venezuela: Merida. maybe.
Guatemala: maybe.

Midpack, I understand your relationship with your spouse. Our difference, it appears, is mine is more flexible.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:26 PM   #31
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Latin America might be in our future yet, although time passes. We have good friends in Panama, but it is hot. Colombia has lots to offer, both urban and rural lifestyles. Caracas would be our default choice if it became livable once again. Farther south is just too far for me.

These lists are funny. Most places where the cost of living is low the lifestyle is so different it drives 1st world habitants crazy. Personally, I kind of miss it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 04:54 PM   #32
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When biking through Perigord and Quercy ~20 years ago, my friends and I realized that it would be possible to live well on modest resources there. Of course, the countryside is absolutely stunning.
That region has a large number of British ex-pats, and a lot more summer-only British & Dutch residents. My sense is that there is a small but growing number of North Americans there. There have been several good books written by Americans who have bought homes there, as well as several enjoyable English-language mystery books set in that region. It is truly a stunning area. I've biked there several times and absolutely love it.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:07 PM   #33
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The decisive cost difference though is medical and dental care: we forego insurance here and pay out of pocket for care from skilled, often U.S. trained, doctors, where routine office visits are $20 and a specialist $40, dental cleaning $15, etc.
Thanks for that info.

I've read about that area of Mexico with great interest for a number of years. Can you tell me:

1. Could a couple get along OK with very, very little ability to speak Spanish? About the level one would get from taking a quickie course......

2. I understand that you find dental and routine medical services to be inexpensive and satisfactory. But, would you have major surgery or treatment of a serious disease (say cancer) done there or would you return to the States?

Thanks.
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Old 01-05-2013, 05:08 PM   #34
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I have studied this issue for many years, on the internet, reading, talking with people and in some cases, visiting the country...
Ed (or, Mr. Gypsy if you prefer): I would like to get a bit more of your perspective on some of the the countries you mention since my list is similar but less extensive. Specifically, I would appreciate any additional insight you could provide on the following:
  • Panama: You indicate it no longer seems to be a viable option; but, it still looks like a very attractive option to me.
  • Peru and Guatemala: I have only recently started giving these serious consideration; and, most people think I am crazy for even contemplating these destinations.
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:02 PM   #35
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Living in Nicaragua sounds like an excellent topic for a new thread. I know that I am very interested in your experiences; and, I have no doubt that at least a few (and, possibly many) others here would also be interested.
Please feel free to start one, with your questions and I will gladly respond. I will have to say upfront that I never went north to Matagalpa or Esteli. My homes were in Managua, Granada and the San Marcos area and I even rented an ocean front house on the Corn Islands for a few months. It had to be the most incredible beach front property EVER for $300/month (including all utilites and A/C), I can privately send a link to the video I made when I moved in for anyone who wants to see it..

I am also familiar with San Juan del Sur but have only spent a few weeks there total.

I can also contrast Nicaragua to Panama City, Antigua, Guatemala, Several cities in Mexico, Quito, Equador and a few cities I have visited in Columbia.

To me, the safest of the bunch would be the Central Mexico, of which I am including Chapala (except for perhaps last spring). I have NEVER felt unsafe in Mexico anywhere I went, using basic common sense.

Guatemala, met many who were robbed, some violently. Panama City, I was in a good area, felt very safe, Quito, robbed twice in less than a week, would NOT recommend and I really did want to like it there. Perhaps Cuenta is much better, never got there. Left after a few days in Quito quite disappointed. Columbia, visited Cartagena, Cali, and Medellian, they all seemed reasonable safe by once again using common sense, but the situation could change I suppose. Columbia had some of the friendliest people and was extremely beautiful.

I would be VERY hesitant to put any serious money into a house in any country in Latin America. Rent is cheap for the most part, and if the security situation goes downhill, you can walk away.
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Old 01-05-2013, 10:32 PM   #36
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Thanks for that info.

I've read about that area of Mexico with great interest for a number of years. Can you tell me:

1. Could a couple get along OK with very, very little ability to speak Spanish? About the level one would get from taking a quickie course......

2. I understand that you find dental and routine medical services to be inexpensive and satisfactory. But, would you have major surgery or treatment of a serious disease (say cancer) done there or would you return to the States?

Thanks.
1. In areas like Lake Chapala and San Miguel de Allende one can certainly get by with very basic Spanish.

2. This is a very important question of course. We've talked with many people here and read many stories by others and the general consensus is that the only reason not to have major surgery or cancer treatment here if needed is if you have Medicare coverage in the U.S. that is cheaper. The worst-case scenarios we personally know of are a guy with no insurance who had a heart attach and quintuple-bypass surgery in one of the best and most expensive private hospitals in Guadalajara, and a woman with no insurance diagnosed with breast cancer who had two surgeries, chemo and follow up for a year. In both cases total costs for extensive treatment were in the $20-25K range - expensive and a hit for sure, but not devastating as would be the case in the U.S.

It's a different world here because you can actually know the price of any procedure in advance and price shop. The other thing I should mention is that there is zero red tape here compared to what we are all used to in the U.S. If you want to see a doctor (including specialists) you call him or her, speak to them directly, and are usually in to see them within a couple of days. They give you their cell phone number for follow-ups and house calls are routine. There are downsides to the system here too but overall the accessibility and affordability of care are impressive. Of course if one had a "Cadillac" employer paid for plan in the U.S. that's much better, but at the other end of the spectrum we know many here who moved down to Mexico in their late 50's or early 60's with pre-existing conditions who now pay all of their food and rent costs with just the savings realized from dropping high-deductible health plans at home. Health care refugees are very common down here. Maybe with ACA this will change.
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:44 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by CoolChange View Post
Ed (or, Mr. Gypsy if you prefer): I would like to get a bit more of your perspective on some of the the countries you mention since my list is similar but less extensive. Specifically, I would appreciate any additional insight you could provide on the following:
  • Panama: You indicate it no longer seems to be a viable option; but, it still looks like a very attractive option to me.
  • Peru and Guatemala: I have only recently started giving these serious consideration; and, most people think I am crazy for even contemplating these destinations.
Hi, CoolChange. My half-baked opinions:

Panama was my first interest, as my brother spent some time there. I have also had the good fortune to talk to several folks who lived in the Canal Zone when it was ours and have stayed current. Panama is HOT, except for the highlands such as Volcan and Boquete. The highlands are boring, far from good medical care and full of Yanquis. Property costs have soared, even rentals in the highlands. There is crime against expats; especially concerning is expat-on-expat. You are a target. Panama City is attractive, but it is not as cheap as it used to be. It is livable if you don't mind hot. Don't even consider any places except Panama City and Boquete. I don't need heat, humidity, bugs and two-legged predators.

Peru looks interesting. A poster on this board is NYEXPAT, who has interesting things to say about Lima and surroundings. It appears that with some care, one could do just fine there.

Parts of Guatemala look interesting, too. Do not linger in Guatemala City though, as it is truly dangerous, as are parts of the countryside. Lake Atitlan, Xila and Antigua look OK but pretty quiet. Billy and Akaisha Kaderli, posters on this board, are there now. They have an e-book on Guatemala, well worth buying. We have a friend who is there now learning Spanish intensively and I might like to do that myself one day.

Caution is necessary, as is a command of Spanish. Do your homework. Make exploratory visits, long ones for places you find interesting, never buy property and never buy 'investments'. Always look at it as if you would have to leave the country at a moment's notice and leave everything behind.

My priorities are safety, healthcare, cost of living and comfort. Our situation has improved since I first began looking into retiring outside the US about 15 years ago in desperation but it remains an option, Plan C at the moment.

Tell me about your list.

Cheers,

Ed
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:36 AM   #38
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Your on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMeUC View Post
Please feel free to start one, with your questions and I will gladly respond. I will have to say upfront that I never went north to Matagalpa or Esteli. My homes were in Managua, Granada and the San Marcos area and I even rented an ocean front house on the Corn Islands for a few months. It had to be the most incredible beach front property EVER for $300/month (including all utilites and A/C), I can privately send a link to the video I made when I moved in for anyone who wants to see it..

I am also familiar with San Juan del Sur but have only spent a few weeks there total.

I can also contrast Nicaragua to Panama City, Antigua, Guatemala, Several cities in Mexico, Quito, Equador and a few cities I have visited in Columbia.

To me, the safest of the bunch would be the Central Mexico, of which I am including Chapala (except for perhaps last spring). I have NEVER felt unsafe in Mexico anywhere I went, using basic common sense.

Guatemala, met many who were robbed, some violently. Panama City, I was in a good area, felt very safe, Quito, robbed twice in less than a week, would NOT recommend and I really did want to like it there. Perhaps Cuenta is much better, never got there. Left after a few days in Quito quite disappointed. Columbia, visited Cartagena, Cali, and Medellian, they all seemed reasonable safe by once again using common sense, but the situation could change I suppose. Columbia had some of the friendliest people and was extremely beautiful.

I would be VERY hesitant to put any serious money into a house in any country in Latin America. Rent is cheap for the most part, and if the security situation goes downhill, you can walk away.
Done: What about living in Nicaragua?

Please tell us more.

Colombia as it is today looked pretty attractive until I saw this:
Colombian Devil's Breath | VICE News | VICE
There was also a discussion of being drugged and robbed in Colombia on Thorn Tree: Error - Lonely Planet travel forum
but I can't access it anymore.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:39 AM   #39
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Can't find the Thorn Tree reference anymore. This one applies to Ecuador:
Quote:
Lonely Planet has received a couple of letters from travelers who were unwittingly drugged and robbed after accepting food from a stranger. You can see the mistake that was made here.
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:52 AM   #40
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OK, here is more on the subject:
Scopolamine: Getting Drugged and Robbed in Colombia
Drugged and Robbed | Travel Lifestyle and Women
Latin America: Victims of drugging and mugging - Telegraph
Colombia: Foreigners Being Drugged and Robbed in Bogota - South America
Scopolamine, burandanga and the borrachero tree
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