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visas & vagabonding
Old 06-11-2007, 06:50 PM   #1
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visas & vagabonding

while citizens of the united states have much visa-free access to the rest of the world, citizens from one country are often severely limited as to the amount of time they can stay inside another country, even when they are neither taking anyone's job nor otherwise utilizing social services of their host countries.

i discovered this while researching a future life of vagabonding or perpetual travel, settling into a place for 6 months here and then moving on to another place for a year there, which i am considering as an option to keep life interesting. but apparently, when staying for more than 30 days in a foreign country, life abroard gets a bit complex.

visa rules vary from place to place and vary also according to your country of origin & citizenship. for instance, new zealand allows only 9 months in country per every 18 months out. so in traveling with good weather, i figure i could spend 6 months in new zealand, then head up to thailand for 6 months, but then i'd have to go someplace like australia for the next 6 months because i couldn't go back & spend 6 more months in new zealand.

other places like thailand and turkey offer 12-month visas but you have to cross the border every few months and then re-enter the host country again.

so i was just wondering, if anyone happens to have all this charted out or if i should continue to gather information the best i can and try to work-out some sort of future travel plan that will not have me skipping all over the world just to do some border runs.

also i don't understand border runs & visa limitations. why wouldn't a host country want someone to spend money there on a continuing basis?
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Old 06-11-2007, 08:23 PM   #2
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Try checking for ex-pat sites on the web for countries you are interested in visiting. Some countries are very lax with their visa rules others are not. Many times these sites will tell you wether you can get by with "just staying" once you are in country. My daughter finished a year's college in a european union country, decided she liked it there so she just stayed. Her visa expired, but her passport did not. She travels extensively and returns to her host country, works a couple of part time jobs, and basically stays under the radar. So far it has worked for her.
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Old 06-12-2007, 12:19 AM   #3
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This is from International Living magazine: Laid Back and Cheap: A Thailand Primer
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Old 06-12-2007, 05:37 AM   #4
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so i was just wondering, if anyone happens to have all this charted out or if i should continue to gather information the best i can and try to work-out some sort of future travel plan that will not have me skipping all over the world just to do some border runs.

also i don't understand border runs & visa limitations. why wouldn't a host country want someone to spend money there on a continuing basis?
I doubt you'd find a concise up-to-date list of what you're looking for. Visa rules change frequently in different countries, so someone would really have to dedicate a lot of time to making sure such a list was current. Plus there are many types of visa's for each country to keep up with. One might exist, but I've not seen such.

I think your question about why there are visa limitations is a complicated one and a different answer probably for each country. Some may include things like keeping the population "pure" by limiting the time foreigners can stay, making sure you do have enough money to be staying there and not taking local jobs, keeping better track of foreigners for political/security reasons, etc....
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Old 06-12-2007, 12:04 PM   #5
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She travels extensively and returns to her host country, works a couple of part time jobs, and basically stays under the radar. So far it has worked for her.
though i remember how fun it used to be to hop into private condo pools along the beach and go skinny dipping, then run to the next when we got caught, or put friends in the trunk to save a dollar at the drive-in theater or a quarter at the state park, i think i'm old enough now that i probably shouldn't be ducking radars.

re: Meadbh's This is from International Living magazine: Laid Back and Cheap: A Thailand Primer

very aware of thailand and love the idea of living there. from almost every picture i've seen of there (and also of new zealand) the scenery looks just stunning. i often eat out at thai restaurants. love the thai people i've met and, though not a religious person, a lot (not all) of buddhism makes much more sense to me than most of the judeo-christian world into which i've found myself born.

and even with border runs, thailand is quite expat friendly. i wonder if that is why there is such a concentration of expats there. i don't know if i'd want to live the rest of my life there. i guess i just wish there weren't so many borders in the world.

trek, good point on changing rules, guess that would make for too many updated editions of the list. sounds like it could also make it difficult for an individual to plan too far into the future.

but, even if you are right, i don't like any of those ideas of restricting visitors. checking visitors could be done annually and they could be made to show varifiable financial resources, someone with good resources wouldn't need to take anyone else's job. and there aren't that many people who can travel perpetually so how much would we be polluting their culture. someone should put me in charge of their visa ministry but then oooops, i'd be taking their job.

i always did have trouble following rules. sometimes it sucks to be an adult. i should go skinny dipping tonight.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:33 PM   #6
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I always wonder about New Zealand and Canada for that matter, I mean I have enough income from a pension, cash for a house and medical insurance but I could not retire to either of these countries.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:10 PM   #7
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I always figured "border runs" were mostly in third world countries and a way for the corrupt governments to earn extra money. They don't get much once you're inside, but if you have to come and go, they get more. Plus you're more open to bribes from the border guys issuing the visas. I mean, you can't "border run" in the US or the EU.

Far as not being able to retire in NZ. Well, just to play devils advocate, maybe NZ is so nice because they don't make immigration easy. Sure you won't take a job or bog down health care, but usually people in groups make demands. You get a large ex-pat community and they're going to want something. And maybe also they don't want big ex-pat communities that alienate the locals. Maybe their society is better because they have more equality amongst the people. Not having big pockets of the wealthy gating themselves in to exclusive communities is a good thing for them.

And really, the whole "I'm rich and should be able to live anywhere I want" really doesn't make a great impression.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:40 PM   #8
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not sure but i think u.s. citizens are only allowed in canada for 6 months at a time though you can be locally sponsored for residency. but 6 months is plenty enough for me as i can't imagine being there in winter anyway.

new zealand does not have a retirement visa but they do have an investor catagory based on a point system. you lose points as you age and gain points based on how much money you invest with them. i think the minimal investment is about us$1.5mm which is held for 5 years. if i understand it right they pay dividends based on the inflation rate minus taxes. all too rich for my middle class blood.

from what i've read, countries like thailand collect very little money on border runs. and even if that was the incentive why not just collect the money without a border run. how about this: i'll pay the government some money, i'll even pay for the bus driver, just stop the border runs.

i get the point on creating stratified societies but i'm not really looking to go country to country so that i can live in gated communities. i wouldn't even live like that here. i want to do it so that i can learn new perspectives and live like locals (well, except maybe with with air conditioning and clean food). i'm not looking to travel as a vacation. i'm looking to travel as a lifestyle. seems there should be some worldwide visa for that.
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Old 06-12-2007, 04:46 PM   #9
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try the lonely planet thorn tree forums for good general advice on visas and tricks and tips to get them/renew them. Lots of perpetual traveler/backpacker types on there. If you're just doing a few countries for a few months at a time, it shouldn't be that hard to research each individual country at their embassy/consular web site in addition to searching old threads at thorn tree forums.
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Old 06-12-2007, 08:09 PM   #10
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thanx justin. have checked out thorntree and they have some good info there. but most of the thorn travelers seem to be younger, as you say, backpackers, or people taking extended time from work or regular vacationers. i haven't noticed many threads dealing with perpetual travel.

as i understand it, as a rule, up to 90 days is not a problem. but i don't want just a few months at a time. i was thinking 1/2 year minimum. i was thinking this for two reasons: one economics of getting deals on apartments and automobiles if need be and to lessen the travel budget between countries, and the other of spending some real time in one place to get to know the place and the people. i bet it would take me a week or three just to find a few good restaurants and where to shop for food, you know, just to settle in.

there's another thread now of a day's visit scratching the surface of new york. i think a week would maybe scratch the surface there. and i would think it would take me 3-6 months to just scratch the surface of cultures so very foreign to me.

don't even know if i'm going to like travel yet. i just thought it would be a way to keep life interesting over the next 20 years, since i've no partner and no family to raise. will practice travel here in north america over the next few years with summers out of florida. hmmm, i wonder if i need a visa to get into tennessee?
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:15 AM   #11
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You may want to check on non-tourist visas also, Lazy. I recall something about a business class visa for cambodia or somewhere in SE asia that was good for a year, but cost 2x-3x what a tourist visa cost, and you had to request a renewal every so often (but I don't think you had to leave the country).

I also wonder what the penalty would be if you overstayed your visa? Might be cheaper to just pay a $200 fine or something if that is all it is...
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:20 AM   #12
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I also wanted to share this tidbit - I was recently researching cambodian visas for my parents-in-laws trip back to the motherland. I was amazed to find that they have an "e-visa" plan where you are able to request a visa online and pay an extra $5 fee (on top of the $20 for the visa). They email you the visa in 3 days, and you're ready to go. No need to fedex your passport to the embassy in Washington DC to get a visa.

I was surprised that a country I assumed to be very 3rd world (many major streets are still dirt-paved) would have made the leap into the 21st century like this. Anybody seen other countries catering to tourists like this?
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Old 06-13-2007, 01:03 PM   #13
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also, to me, surprising for a third world country because i would think instead of convenience & efficiency they might be looking for ways to employ more people.

i'm also learning about non tourist visas. some have retirement-type visas for longer stays like thailand and australia but a lot of these business-type visas assume that you will be employed in a country or starting a business. i need a lazy-catagory visa. you know, the visa that doesn't make me work, doesn't make me put down roots, just lets me hang-out for year. a visa of convenience.

was checking out thorntree last night. seems this type of life is getting more difficult. apparently the perpetual traveler does not have a good reputation. i've found similar problems when looking into the live-aboard, cruising lifestyle. seems the world mistrusts anyone who isn't tied to a mortgage or at least to some fixed address.
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:48 PM   #14
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Don't get discouraged. I have been traveling for nearly two years outside the United States and everything has worked out very easily. I have spent the majority of my time in Buenos Aires, Argentina and Florianopolis, Brazil. In Argentina you are only allowed to stay 90 days but you can take a day trip to Uruguay for as little as $30 round trip.

I got my Brazil Visa in 2005 and they gave me a 5 year Visa which they don't seem to be doing anymore. I can stay for up to 180 days per year in Brazil with a maximum of 90 days per visit. Once again, I just planned a nice 10 day trip to Buenos Aires (around $230) and took a break from the beach life. If you happen to head to these parts it's very wise to spend January/February in Buenos Aires because that is the summer and everyone is on vacations and the city is calm and has great weather. This is opposite of Florianopolis where people flock at that time causing the cost of living to spike at that time. I spent March to June in Brazil during low season renting a 5 bed room villa in the nicest neighborhood of the island for $800/month (cable tv & high speed internet included). I have learned to avoid the peak seasons and try to visit places during shoulder season.

Last summer I spent some time in SE Asia. Everything is fairly close and traveling out of the country is pretty easy. Discount airlines are starting to pop-up all over the place (like TigerAir) and I am sure you could do a round trip flight from Thailand to Singapore, Malaysia or Vietnam for about $100 r/t. What I do is keep my eye on flight specials and try to catch a deal.

I was also very surprised at the nice deals in Asia and Australia to travel in that region. You should be able to travel in that area easily and cost effectively.

I also included these travel expenses in my cost of living calculations before I decided living abroad was the proper financial decision for me. I added in my original long haul flight to get to the corner of the world I would be in and then the short flights to stay in compliance. It's kind of nice, you get to go on a vacation from your vacation.

Also note that you can avoid the border crossings in many countries by visiting the federal police. It's usually very easy but I preferred to stay as transparent as possible.

In case you need some good travel sites, here are a couple of my favorite comparison shopping sites for airline tickets:
www.mobissimo.com
Cheap Airfare, Hotel Reservations, Car Rentals - Kayak.com
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Old 06-16-2007, 06:40 AM   #15
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thanx for encouragement andyr. loved reading what you had to say about vagabonding. are you maintaining a residence in the states as well? i'm considering either no residence here or maybe a cheap condo someplace which i can easily close up and not worry about too much.

love the idea of cheap living overseas though i'm not so much concerned with the cost as i can't imagine it being much more than living here in south florida even with travel costs. still, i never cared for buying retail.

as to the 90-day bit, are you able to keep the same apartment even though you have to leave the country only to re-enter. i don't know procedures but it would seem odd to, say, pay last month & deposit on a 6-month lease or even leave personal items in an apartment if you don't know 100% for sure that you can get back into a country. or do you simply rent month to month and then take all your belongings with you on border crossings?

in thinking about it, i guess the 90-day period might facilitate seeing more of a country, spending 90 days in one city or area, then returning to a different town after a mandatory border crossing.

though to my ear the border crossings sound like such a hassle, my cousin said last night over dinner: "what hassle. you're not working, what else do you have to do?"

i'm a little concerned with ground transportation. i've never been sans a car as an adult. so i thought while vagabonding i could get a used car for 6 months or a year (at least i was thinking that before i learned of all the timing issues) and then sell or give it to charity on exiting a country. but if i have to exit in 90 days that plan might not be quite so cost-effective.

how do you deal with those types of issues?

ps. still researching much about this. i found one country that looks to offer the ideal visa. south africa has a financial independence visa. you show you got a million bucks, buy an apartment for $70k and then pretty much live there as long as you want. and if i ever found myself playing with a baby lion in south africa, well, i might never come home.
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Old 06-16-2007, 09:43 AM   #16
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Well I was far far from reaching FIRE when I left so one of my goals was to reduce every expense possible. I technically keep a residence at my Mother's home (that is where my mail is sent and I stay when I am in the States). She is nice enough to read to me what I got in the mail and if is something important then she will take it to the office and have it scanned and emailed to me. There is a new service that scans all your mail and posts it to a website and even one I have heard of in the Keys that is for sailors. The latter will accept FexEx, certified mail, packages, etc and coordinate forwarding your mail to you wherever you are.

I love living without a car. It has forced me to take my time and walk to do things. Here in Buenos Aires having a car would be a liability. The people drive crazy and you would be stuck in traffic when you can go underground and cross the city in the metro much faster. There are 40,000 taxis and they are dirt cheap. In Brazil (on the island of Florianopolis) a car is probably needed. When I first moved there I rented one for a month at a time (decent discount for longer term rentals). After that visit I ended up renting a house and the landlord had a car he rented to me. I did spend about 3 months without a car there and walking to the grocery store, baker, to get a hair cut and back home down the beach was great. I actually liked to force myself to do things slower by not having a car.

The transportation issue depends very much on where you are going to be. I know that it is very easy and common to be able to buy cars in Australia and sell them to other travelers upon departure. There are lots of vagabond travelers in AU. I spent a month up in Queensland (it was winter in the southern hemisphere and I had warm clothes so I did not go to Southern states) and the local infrastructure was great. Very nice trains to the coast from Brisbane, a nice train to the airport, taxis readily available and nice clean buses and even water taxis. I did a lot of research on going to Cape Town for some time and I hear it can be pretty spread out, so a car is important. It will just depend on the place.

I did look into buying a car in Brazil and it would have been cost effective. Even if you don't give the car away, you might be back and can likely leave it with someone you meet that lives there. That makes returning very easy. I found that every time I left some place I had just "figured everything out" so when I went back, it was all very easy and nice. I can't say it was more enjoyable because part of the fun is the challenge of figuring it all out.

I never rented for 6 months strait. The most I have done is 3 months. I know you can get a better deal sometimes but the longer term places are often unfurnished or not as easily ready for move in as a vacation rental. So far everything has just worked out with leaving and coming back. Don't stress that they are not going to let you back in. By leaving and returning you are following the laws and they know your tourist dollars are good for their economy. The only times you need to be concerned is if you violate your visa and stay for 6 months when you were supposed to stay for only 3 and they see this on your record. Then I have heard of people being denied. I have never heard of people following the rules and being turned away (I am sure it happens but I would not worry to much about it). Your cousin is right, it's not that big of a hassle...

Since I have not yet achieved FIRE, I have to make sure highspeed internet is available before hand or that the owner will let me install it. This has been very easy by getting locals to help me out. Even in Brazil (when I did not speak any Portuguese) I ended up find a person at the local cyber cafe who helped me get a cable modem installed at my place the next day.

I hear Cape Town (and the rest of S Africa) is really amazing. It gets super crowded at Christmas, New Years and January with people seeking sun for their winter get-a-way. Lots of nice wines, nice restaurants, etc. The water is cold and the sand on the beach is not super fine, more of a rough colder type beach like Northern California.

I also have a friend who is living in Mozambique (just North of S Africa). He has an unbelievable place on the beach in a nice high rise next to a 5 star hotel. He pays a monthly fee to use the hotel's facilities (spa & pool) and really enjoys it there. I think this would be more like going to Thailand 10 years ago. I definately want to spend some time in Africa as I think there is huge potential there for the next 50 years.

Here is a site with some places to rent on the internet.
craigslist: san francisco bay area classifieds for jobs, apartments, personals, for sale, services, community, and events
..VRBOŽ is Vacation Rentals by OwnerŽ Vacation Homes Rentals by Owner
search for the local newspaper and look in the classifieds

I have always lined things up before getting to each place. I have some friends that have gone and stayed in a hotel for a week while they went to look at places with a real estate agent. The nice thing about vacation destinations is the available inventory of properties makes it easy to find a furnished rental.
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Old 06-16-2007, 10:40 AM   #17
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.....and even one I have heard of in the Keys that is for sailors. The latter will accept FexEx, certified mail, packages, etc and coordinate forwarding your mail to you wherever you are.
You're likely referring to Voyagers Mail Forwarding Service - Mail forwarding services for boaters and people on the move.

This is who I use to forward my mail here to Estonia. They are in Islamorada, FL. I'm from Florida and wanted to maintain a Florida address and I had heard good things about them. So far I've been happy with their service. Very personable and always answer my emails very promptly.
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Old 06-16-2007, 02:45 PM   #18
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Ahhhhh.......that's the life, Andyr!
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Old 06-17-2007, 08:21 PM   #19
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Like LazyGood4NothingBum, I [want to] live in south FL, and may well move there, for the urban life (which is abundant down there), as well as to be closer to MIAMI & other airports, that have the dirt-cheap flights. I specialize in Latin America, because it's so cheap. I'm no expert on visas, but the gist of some of my "global travel" type books is basically as stated, the rules change all the time, you have to do some planning. Probably harder if you want to (legally) stay a long time. In my travels in Mexico, I met one ex-pat whose solution was to pay someone $100 to take his passport to Belize to have it stamped every few months. An American woman ex-pat, in another city, was proud that she'd gotten her visa legally and with no bribery, having negotiated the bureacracy. She claimed she bought the government office snacks as a "thank you." (after the fact bribe?) There you have...two extremes, from a country that it is fairly easy for Yanquis at least, to reside in.
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Old 06-21-2007, 10:42 AM   #20
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andyr, sorry for delay in response. dealing with too many family issues this week.

your story sounds just amazing. reading it makes me think that if we had any kind of a real estate market left in florida i'd sell today and be on my way. i've already sorted through my things and done a visual inventory of what i'd like to box up for keeping at my brother's house. i'm not even into things yet it is amazing--even with that--how much stuff i have that means nothing to me. i figure two boxes ought to do it, and that mostly just of what was my mother's and grandmother's that i might like later in life to enjoy and to pass on to my brother's kids. everything else can go to charity.

now to pick out a few clothing items, tie them in a handkerchief, tie that bag of goods to a stick, slling it over my shoulder and i'm all set.

pedorrero, thanx for input. but i think i will be doing everything on the up & up. i've already lived life long enough on the down & low. no reason to push my luck.

good luck on combining early retirement & moving to south florida. i'm headed in the opposite direction. you've more funds than me.
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