Clinton to Richardson: 'Barack Obama Can't Win'

[clifp]

Originally Posted by Wags

CBS

It is time for the Clintons and the national news media such as Mr. O'Reilly, Mr. Hannity and others to let the Rev Wright issue go. Mr. Obama has already denounced Rev Wright's comments. What else do they want the poor devil to do?

GOD BLESS US ALL

I think Hillary would be happy if pulled out of the race, and McCain would be happy if Barack gave him his campaign contributors list.

Personally, I think this is good test for Barack. The kitchen is pretty hot at 1600 Pennsylvania.

It seems me that Barack for all his vaunted rhetorical skills, is not a great leader if can't convince his former mentor, spiritual advisor, and presumably friend to keep his mouth shut and his face of national TV.

[TromboneAl]

It seems me that Barack for all his vaunted rhetorical skills, is not a great leader if can't convince his former mentor, spiritual advisor, and presumably friend to keep his mouth shut and his face of national TV.

I would agree if Wright were a reasonable man. That is, if he were a man who could be reasoned with.

[Bram]

Originally Posted by Wags

It appears that Mrs. Clinton is trying to point to a lack of judgement on the part of Mr. Obama as it pertains to his association with Rev Wright. Well I guess the same thing could be said about Mrs. Clinton's lack of judgement when it comes to her staying with Mr. Clinton after standing by and putting up with Mr. Clinton's numerous in·fi·del·i·ties over the years.

Does this also not point to one's lack of judgement?

I hardly think that is a "judgement" call. It shows not a shred of good judgement, nor bad judgement. I really think the inside of the Clinton marriage is no one's business.

Personally, I think this is good test for Barack. The kitchen is pretty hot at 1600 Pennsylvania.

I think it's a good test, too. And I believe Obama has handled it well. I personally know what it is like to have a family member stab you in the back and then twist the knife. I didn't handle it well. Come to think of it, I also didn't handle well the boss who knifed me way, way back early in my career.

Wright has been described by some of his contemporaries as "narcissistic"..... it seems to fit, imho. I doubt we've heard the last from him.

[Wags]

USA Today - Superdelegate switches; endorses Sen. Obama

Superdelegate switches; endorses Sen. Obama - USATODAY.com

Excerpts from the article

Former Democratic National Committee Chairman Joe Andrew, an Indiana native who also was state party chairman there, announced his switch just a few days before the state's crucial Tuesday primary.

In an interview with The Indianapolis Star, Andrew — one of the crucial "superdelegates" both campaigns are courting — also said his wife Ann, who had been a full-time volunteer for Clinton, also is switching her support to Obama. The Star is owned by Gannett, parent company of USA TODAY.

Andrew said the primary fight between Clinton and Obama has become too divisive.

"It's bad and it's time to end it now," Andrew said. "End it in Indiana on Tuesday."

Andrew said his decision — which puts him at odds with Sen. Evan Bayh of Indiana, who is a national co-chairman of Clinton's campaign — was a "long time coming." But he said the final thing that tipped him to backing Obama was the gasoline tax holiday that Clinton, as well as Sen. John McCain, have proposed. He called it "pandering" and said it represented the old-style politics that he said he'd been a practitioner of himself.

He said he had not called the Clintons to tell them of his decision, in part because it would have prompted that campaign to let out "their attack dogs" even sooner.

End of excerpts.

I am sure that Mr. Clinton is having a cow over this latest de·fec·tion. This can not be a good sign for the Clinton campaign.

But the question is who are the Clintons more TICKED OFF at Mr. Andrew or Gov. Richardson?

GOD BLESS US ALL

[samclem]

Attached link goes to a fairly complete site with maps showing the estimated electoral counts for Obama vs McCain and Clinton vs McCain. It looks like the site is updated fairly frequently.
Election 2008: Presidential, Senate and House Races Updated Daily

The map on the first page is a busy as it tries to put too much on one graphic, but maps at other links (McCain vs Obama, McCain vs Clinton) are more clear.

As of May 1, the site estimates:

Hillary Rodham Clinton/John Sidney McCain III matchup: 291 for Clinton, 247 for McCain
Barack Hussein Obama/John Sidney McCain III matchup: 243 for Obama, 269 for McCain

Looks like maybe Ralph Nader's assistance won't even be needed this year, the Democratic Party will take care of things on their own. Of course, November is a long way off, too.

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by samclem

As of May 1, the site estimates:

Hillary Rodham Clinton/John Sidney McCain III matchup: 291 for Clinton, 247 for McCain
Barack Hussein Obama/John Sidney McCain III matchup: 243 for Obama, 269 for McCain

Well, if that holds AND Obama has a higher popular vote count at that time (that may depend on how they decide to count FL/MI), the Dems are going to have an interesting little problem on their hands.

-ERD50

[youbet]

Originally Posted by Wags

It appears that Mrs. Clinton is trying to point to a lack of judgement on the part of Mr. Obama as it pertains to his association with Rev Wright. Well I guess the same thing could be said about Mrs. Clinton's lack of judgement when it comes to her staying with Mr. Clinton after standing by and putting up with Mr. Clinton's numerous in·fi·del·i·ties over the years.

Does this also not point to one's lack of judgement?

How does this relate to judgement? I think it doesn't. Rather it relates to the Clintons' own preferences regarding the place of sex in their relationship and their open-mindedness about non-traditional sexual activities. If menage-a-trois (in this case, two women and one man) is what they find titillating, that's up to them. If Hillary wishes to keep her involvement in these affairs between herself, Bill and the other women, that's up to her. In fact, if her and Bill's commitment to the other women included discretion, then being silent is excercising good judgment.

Whadaya want Wags? The videos taken in their private quarters? An XXX paperback book? Your own leather teddy?

What goes on between two consenting women and a man is up to them!

[BoutDone]

Originally Posted by youbet

Obama said that Rev Wright today is a completely different person than the Rev Wright he knew and assoicated with over the years.

I've been a bit suspicious about Obama all along, but I'll have to say that his statements regarding Wright today are very convincing. Clearly he does not endorse Wright in any way and wants to be totally disassociated from him.

It is disappointing that he didn't come across like this at the beginning of the controversy.

Let's see - 20 yrs accepting and agreeing - Wright's YouTube goes public and Obama defends him like his Grandma - Wright rants some more using exact same words and attacks - Obama campaign now feeling pain - Hillary stokes the fire ...

Now, just because of "todays" comments by Wright, Obama disassociates?

I am not so sure that is real genuine. Sounds more like wink, wink , nod, nod to me. JMHO.

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by BoutDone

Let's see - 20 yrs accepting and agreeing - Wright's YouTube goes public and Obama defends him like his Grandma - Wright rants some more using exact same words and attacks - Obama campaign now feeling pain - Hillary stokes the fire ...

Now, just because of "todays" comments by Wright, Obama disassociates?

I am not so sure that is real genuine. Sounds more like wink, wink , nod, nod to me. JMHO.

Let me give a more generous reading of these events. Mind you, I'm not saying right/wrong, just a different view.

A) The Pastor becomes news with his remarks.

B) I think the typical political move would have been to ignore, deny, distract, and then dissassociate if that didn't work.

C) Obama did take a different approach. He used this issue to address race relations in this country. And, IMO, it was a pretty good speech, and he said some things that needed to be said. Part of his message was, if someone says something you disagree with, you should try to understand where they are coming from, and why they say these things. I liked the speech, and a good % of the public did too (I forget the numbers).

D) Pastor Wright, rather than picking up on this positive momentum, continued with divisive talk.

E) At this point, seeing that Pastor Wright is not going to try to move forward, Obama disassociates himself from the Pastor.

Now, Obama could have gone right from step A&B to step E. I actually like the fact that he tried steps C & D. I think it is a good way to approach differences with people. It didn't work in this case, but I give him credit for trying.

This is just one way that I think it can be viewed. I'm not going to try to sell anyone on it, or even defend it (I'm not saying it is the only view, or even the right one). It's just another view.

-ERD50

[haha]

Originally Posted by youbet

How does this relate to judgement? I think it doesn't. Rather it relates to the Clintons' own preferences regarding the place of sex in their relationship and their open-mindedness about non-traditional sexual activities. If menage-a-trois (in this case, two women and one man) is what they find titillating, that's up to them. If Hillary wishes to keep her involvement in these affairs between herself, Bill and the other women, that's up to her. In fact, if her and Bill's commitment to the other women included discretion, then being silent is excercising good judgment.

Whadaya want Wags? The videos taken in their private quarters? An XXX paperback book? Your own leather teddy?

What goes on between two consenting women and a man is up to them!

Hey, I didn't know about this. I will definitely vote for Hillary, even if she is a dirty Dem. Unless of course McCain and his Mrs. can provide a similar entertainment - maybe a Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice? I'm leaning toward the McCains of course, maybe Condi, and to fill out the roster, Joe Dallesandro?

Ha

[youbet]

I thought I had had more than enough of the Rev Wright stuff but couldn't resist watching some longer (2.5 mins) clips of his sermons on TV tonight along with some analysis and commentary by black clergy (an ex-director of the Southern Leadership Conference). Wright is a devisive guy! And apparantly the few 8 sec clips that were circulating aren't an exception but rather somewhat typical of his message. OK......... So what?

Now..... Mr. Obama is aware of this aspect of Rev Wright but is either accepting it or minimizing it in his own mind over a period of years. But when Rev Wright's views recieve much publicity and connections are drawn to Mr Obama and his candidacy, now Mr. Obama is concerned and speaks up first with the race speech and then with complete disassociation.

Like ERD50, I can imagine possible explanations. I know sometimes activists must speak with great exaggeration to help make their points. (The AIDS - genocide thing is really pushing that though......). Still, I'm having trouble feeling comfortable with the part of Obama relating to his close association with Rev Wright.

If Hillary went to church with a pastor who handled snakes and preached fire and brimstone every Sunday and the press picked up on it, would we just say "OK" if she disassociated herself?

Remember, we're a country that trimbled in our boots that the Pope would rule Washington if JFK was elected president.

Obama may not be able to climb out of this hole. But it will be up to Indiana and NC voters and the so-called super delegates to decide.

I'm just not sure what to think...........

[JPatrick]

Originally Posted by youbet

Whadaya want Wags? The videos taken in their private quarters? An XXX paperback book? Your own leather teddy?

Hey, if wags doesn't go for the leather teddy, I'd like it

[youbet]

Originally Posted by JPatrick

Hey, if wags doesn't go for the leather teddy, I'd like it

If you'd be willing to pose for a photo holding a whip, we might have some new material for Martha's avatar collection!

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by youbet

Still, I'm having trouble feeling comfortable with the part of Obama relating to his close association with Rev Wright..

Yes. In my less generous view, this is troubling.

If Hillary went to church with a pastor who handled snakes and preached fire and brimstone every Sunday and the press picked up on it, would we just say "OK" if she disassociated herself?

Well, the difference for me is, I already *know* I dislike the Clintons I'm trying to like Obama, so I have something to compare/contrast McCain to in the generals.

-ERD50

[youbet]

Originally Posted by ERD50

I'm trying to like Obama,

Well...... grit you teeth, puff up your chest, grunt a few times and jerk that barbell off the floor! I know it's a heavy load, but you can do it!

(Also, refer to the pulled groin thread running concurrently!)

[BoutDone]

Originally Posted by ERD50

Let me give a more generous reading of these events. Mind you, I'm not saying right/wrong, just a different view.

A) The Pastor becomes news with his remarks.

B) I think the typical political move would have been to ignore, deny, distract, and then dissassociate if that didn't work.

C) Obama did take a different approach. He used this issue to address race relations in this country. And, IMO, it was a pretty good speech, and he said some things that needed to be said. Part of his message was, if someone says something you disagree with, you should try to understand where they are coming from, and why they say these things. I liked the speech, and a good % of the public did too (I forget the numbers).

D) Pastor Wright, rather than picking up on this positive momentum, continued with divisive talk.

E) At this point, seeing that Pastor Wright is not going to try to move forward, Obama disassociates himself from the Pastor.

Now, Obama could have gone right from step A&B to step E. I actually like the fact that he tried steps C & D. I think it is a good way to approach differences with people. It didn't work in this case, but I give him credit for trying.

This is just one way that I think it can be viewed. I'm not going to try to sell anyone on it, or even defend it (I'm not saying it is the only view, or even the right one). It's just another view.

-ERD50

ERD50,

Okay - let's say Obama took the higher road as you describe. What is most important is that we are trying to decide who is best for our next President, who will lead the country.

It is well accepted that Obama wants to sit down to talk with our enemies in Iran. He wants to discuss the situation and try to understand their position better so that maybe some better outcome can occur. Sounds good doesn't it. Will it work? Who knows. Can Obama do it? Let's see how he has done in another situation - that of Rev Wright.

A) The Pastor Ahmadinejad becomes news with his remarks.

B) I think the typical political move would have been to ignore, deny, distract, and then dissassociate if that didn't work.

C) Obama did take a different approach. He used this issue to address race Iranian relations in this country. And, IMO, it was a pretty good speech, and he said some things that needed to be said. Part of his message was, if someone says something you disagree with, you should try to understand where they are coming from, and why they say these things. I liked the speech, and a good % of the public did too (I forget the numbers). All of us want peace in the Mideast and like to hear of even the slightest hope of progress.

D) Pastor Wright Ahmadinejad, rather than picking up on this positive momentum, continued with divisive talk.

E) At this point, seeing that Pastor Wright Ahmadinejad is not going to try to move forward, Obama disassociates himself from the Pastor nut job.

Now, Obama could have gone right from step A&B to step E. I actually like the fact that he tried steps C & D. I think it is a good way to approach differences with people. It didn't work in this case, but I give him credit for trying.

Give him credit for trying? What trying? Did you hear Obama say that he told Wright to his face that he was troubled with Wrights comments? No. Did you hear Obama tell any of his fellow church members that he was troubled with Wrights comments? No. What specific actions did Obama take during those 20 years to bring about the "change we can believe in". None.

This, to me, speaks volumes as what we can expect from an Obama Presidency. Are you willing to wait 20 years for Ahmadinejad to finally piss Obama off enough to speak out against him?

I'm not!

[Wags]

Last night Mr. Beck had another news rant on Pastor Wright's comments and on Mr. Obama's response to them.

Heck, the news media is what is giving this story the legs to stand on. As long as they continue to show Pastor Wright then this will continue to be an issue. It is time for Mr. Beck, Mr. O'Reilly, Mr. Hannity and the other political pundits to let this go.

The people of America do not seem to care and we have better things to worry about like the price of gas, the economy, losing one's home, the home mortgage fisaco, the education of our children, wages, the care of OUR TROOPS and OUR VETERANS, and the Iraq War (just to name a few), then to ponder about what Pastor Wright might or might not have said.

NY Times - Minister’s Comments Hold Little Sway in Indianapolis Enclave

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/02/us...=1&oref=slogin


GOD BLESS US ALL

[BoutDone]

Don't expect the Rev issue to go away anytime soon. Too important a mirror as to Obamas character.

Hillary has her Right wing conspiracy, why can't Obama have his Wright wing conspiracy?

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by BoutDone

Give him credit for trying? What trying? Did you hear Obama say that he told Wright to his face that he was troubled with Wrights comments? No. Did you hear Obama tell any of his fellow church members that he was troubled with Wrights comments? No. What specific actions did Obama take during those 20 years to bring about the "change we can believe in". None.

This, to me, speaks volumes as what we can expect from an Obama Presidency. Are you willing to wait 20 years for Ahmadinejad to finally piss Obama off enough to speak out against him?

I'm not!

And that is an equally valid viewpoint. Like I said, I'm not going to defend, or get into right/wrong on this.

But I will say, we need to put this in the context of whether this behavior/problem is better/worse than the other candidates. Of course, I may also decide to exercise my right to not cast a vote for any candidate.

Can I count on Hillary-I'll-say-anything-to-get-elected-Clinton ( I proudly wear my bias on my sleeve! ) to do better or worse in dealings with Ahmadinejad? That is the question at this juncture.

-ERD50

[BoutDone]

ERD50,

You know there are three candidates in the race for President.