Does GOP Reflect the US?

[Texarkandy]

I feel so left out of the political process - where's my community organizer? I wanna sue somebody!

[chinaco]

Originally Posted by bright eyed

washingtonpost.com

...
Even JC Watts got tired of being head token.

I have heard watts being interviewed several times. In the recent past he was hinting that he might vote for Obama in spite of his party affiliation. The GOP backed his campaign. He has now finally declared he is voting for McCain.

The curious part is that he was not saying that when Hillary was the heir apparent. He shows up periodically on the political shows and espouses his thoughts.

When I consider my personal politics... I generally consider the well-being of all. However, I also believe in people working for what they get an not creating a bunch of government hand outs. I also do not like big business getting handouts either and shift the tax burden on to the individual. (given our current tax system).

Considering that I am solidly middle class... The democratic party does not reflect the middle-class US nor does the republican party.

Both of those parties have sold out. They pimp themselves to whomever can swing the vote rather than fundamental principles.

The choice in this election is the most tolerable of two sellout parties that regularly lie to us and sell us out for votes and money.

[ladelfina]

Maybe some believe the telling "bitter, clinging to their guns and religion" sniping cast the light on the man's true feelings of disdain for those not in his "club."

YOU insert the disdain. YOU impute it.

Obama was not being disdainful; he was being descriptive.
.. a number of Pennslyvanians came out to say Obama was right...they WERE bitter.


Look at the rich dudes at the RNC.. they are clinging to guns 'n' religion, too. Can't get enough of either one. They're just not "bitter" because they are RICH. Sarah Palin comes from a place just like those rural PA towns, and she clings to guns 'n' religion.. but she's not "bitter" because Alaska is RICH to begin with AND gets the most Federal welfare!! Back in 2003 it was something like $12,000/per person in Federal tax money going to Alaska. AND that's on top of something like $5billion/year they get from the oil co.s .. for 600,000 people. The state just hands out checks of a few grand a year to every resident.

Do you think Palin is really gonna turn around 180 degrees and reverse that trend and screw over her Alaskan compatriots? DREAM ON. ALASKA FIRST.

People are bitter because the middle class engine is out of gas. Some people will say its because it's carrying to much of a social load.. but I say it's because a coterie of extreme power and wealth has essentially drained the tank. People are bitter because there are fewer and fewer low-medium skilled jobs that pay a wage a family can live on.

The people who criticized Obama's comment for being disdainful or insulting have it completely backwards. HE understands why they are bitter. The Obama-bashers think all is right with America and no one could possibly be bitter --THEY are the elitists-- because they have no clue, or choose to turn a blind eye, as to what growing income inequality and job losses are wreaking.

[chinaco]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

YOU insert the disdain. YOU impute it.

Obama was not being disdainful; he was being descriptive.
.. a number of Pennslyvanians came out to say Obama was right...they WERE bitter.

Descriptive perhaps... but he was really saying what might play to certain group of lib voters.

The problem I have with Obama is that he seems to flip-flop regularly. I am not sure what to believe.

Remember the comment in Ohio about NAFTA and his staffer's conversation with the Canadian official.

That happens a bit too often. It is the result of one or likely situations:

1) he doesn't really know his positions and is continually adjusting them (innocently)
2) he is being a bit deceptive and his true agenda and goals are not stated... he is willing to say whatever to get the vote.

[Spanky]

Originally Posted by chinaco

1) he doesn't really know his positions and is continually adjusting them (innocently)
2) he is being a bit deceptive and his true agenda and goals are not stated... he is willing to say whatever to get the vote.

Fits the profile of a typical politician.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by samclem

Should whites feel suddenly part of an "oppressed majority" like Su'nis have been in Iraq?

Obviously, I meant Shia have been oppressed by Su'ni. Just seeing if anyone was paying attention--I guess not.

[REWahoo]

Originally Posted by samclem

Obviously, I meant Shia have been oppressed by Su'ni. Just seeing if anyone was paying attention--I guess not.

Sam, this is the Soap Box, remember? Posters are so busy thinking up snappy rejoinders they don't have time to pay attention!

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by samclem

If Obama wins, will you be bothered that a black man, representing a racial group that is only approx 12% of the US population, and backed by a party that is disproportionately black, is now president of a nation that us mostly white? Should whites feel suddenly part of an "oppressed majority" like Su'nis have been in Iraq? "Help, I'm being oppressed!"

Of course not.

It's time to get beyond race--let it go! It is finally (thankfully!) of no greater importance than eye color. Obama's strong showing and wide acceptance (and the admirable way he's conducted himself in the campaign with regard to racial issues) demonstrate this very well. Except for a very few bigots (of all races--but generally of the older generation)to be found in a few dim corners of society--people who will leave the demographic only when the grim reaper takes them--nobody gives a darn about a person's race. Don't mourn--celebrate! This day's been long in coming, thousands of people died for it and dreamed of it.

The only people I see doing the racial bean count anymore are those who make money or political hay from it. They are dinosaurs.

Ya know, it's very funny how we see things differently. I don't see the Democratic Party as being disproportionately black, though I do see blacks as being members of the Democratic Party, disproportionately. I read something interesting the other day; white men have been in the minority since the founding of this nation but have disproportionately controlled our government; that's a lot of catch-up for others to play, if someone were keeping score.

It's easy to say, let's not keep score and it's all a new day, when you've had the privilege of being the beneficiary of one race. 90 percent of the population, I imagine are in favor of getting beyond race too. We're far from that, Obama's candidacy notwithstanding. I will admit we've come a long, long way from where we used to be, and there is much promise for the future. Your celebration is premature, from my standpoint.

[ladelfina]

both crowds look pretty white to me.

If blacks are 12% of the US population then of course you would still only see a handful in a photo of 30-40 people.. if it were truly representative.

The question was: does the GOP reflect the US?
The US IS mostly white.. it's just nowhere near as white as the RNC delegations.

Seems like you want to criticize the photo of Obama's supporters because they are not black enough.. but if they were more black.. then you'd likely complain they were too black..

they are just two sets of photos that give an overall sense! One photo looks like a bunch of board directors.. and the other photos look like random people you would see on a downtown street.

I was less interested in race than just the diversity in how they came across.. and the very different sorts of energy/vibe.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

90 percent of the population, I imagine are in favor of getting beyond race too. We're far from that, Obama's candidacy notwithstanding. I will admit we've come a long, long way from where we used to be, and there is much promise for the future. Your celebration is premature, from my standpoint.

I guess I'm ready for the other 10% to produce some real reasons why we should keep plowing this field. Isn't it time to plant and harvest the fruits of a post-racial society? Frankly, I think the only folks who want to keep plowing are those selling plows.

So, why should the dialogue about "race" continue in the US? I'm not talking about poverty, or about equal opportunity--those discussions will stay with us forever. I'm talking about the nasty stuff that pits racial groups against each other and actually impedes healing-set asides, "affirmative action" (quotas), etc. For my part, I refuse to give any information to the pollsters or census takers about my race--hey, I don't even know what "race" is supposed to mean, and I sure don't know who was impregnating who 500 years back in my lineage. So, I leave the question blank or give some non-answer. I encourage everyone else to do the same.

[bright eyed]

Originally Posted by samclem

I guess I'm ready for the other 10% to produce some real reasons why we should keep plowing this field. Isn't it time to plant and harvest the fruits of a post-racial society? Frankly, I think the only folks who want to keep plowing are those selling plows.

So, why should the dialogue about "race" continue in the US? I'm not talking about poverty, or about equal opportunity--those discussions will stay with us forever. I'm talking about the nasty stuff that pits racial groups against each other and actually impedes healing-set asides, "affirmative action" (quotas), etc. For my part, I refuse to give any information to the pollsters or census takers about my race--hey, I don't even know what "race" is supposed to mean, and I sure don't know who was impregnating who 500 years back in my lineage. So, I leave the question blank or give some non-answer. I encourage everyone else to do the same.

I think Chrisc answered your position well - you can want a "post racial" society all day long - but if that just results in the same inequities, then it's just a guise to cover up continued inequity/bigotry whatever.

I think talking about it explicitely is way more productive than ignoring or pretending.

And the STARK lack of different people at the RNC is worth a conversation - if it was at least somewhat more reflective, i'd give a rat's behind. And a leader of this country SHOULD care if folks aren't at his table to decide THE AGENDA that he wants TO SET FOR EVERYONE...

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by samclem

I guess I'm ready for the other 10% to produce some real reasons why we should keep plowing this field. Isn't it time to plant and harvest the fruits of a post-racial society? Frankly, I think the only folks who want to keep plowing are those selling plows.

So, why should the dialogue about "race" continue in the US? I'm not talking about poverty, or about equal opportunity--those discussions will stay with us forever. I'm talking about the nasty stuff that pits racial groups against each other and actually impedes healing-set asides, "affirmative action" (quotas), etc. For my part, I refuse to give any information to the pollsters or census takers about my race--hey, I don't even know what "race" is supposed to mean, and I sure don't know who was impregnating who 500 years back in my lineage. So, I leave the question blank or give some non-answer. I encourage everyone else to do the same.

Perhaps, I should have made myself clearer. I'm part of that 90 percent that clings to the ideal that our society ought to be color-blind for virtually every important aspect of how we deal with each other and how our government deals with us. It's an ideal but people might have legitimate differences on how close or how far we are to fulfilling that ideal. On the other hand, I believe there is a sizeable portion of the population that does not share that ideal -- maybe 10 percent might be too big a group; not all of these people are bigots, though there might be a few of those. And some might have "good" reasons for their views -- I'm not willing to say that there are never good reasons to consider race. Race is not, in my view, like eye-color or hair texture or color. (I used to say it's immutable like gender, but I think that's wrong for a number of reasons, and some people, rare as they be, can transcend race.)

Affirmative action is an area where people have legitimate issues over whether race should play a part in our decision-making processes. It is not surprising that this issue and other racial fault-line issues have been taken off the table as "wedge issues" during this campaign. Obama, as the first Black President of the Harvard Law Review, was not an "affirmative action" selection for perhaps one of the most distinguished achievements a law student could accomplish; his entrance into each institution of higher education appears devoid of special consideration; and his discussions about race are disarming to others. And McCain is perhaps the most progressive of recent Republican candidates: he acknowledged that he was "wrong" for supporting the Confederate Flag in South Carolina in his 2000 campaign for political reasons; he acquired a racial sensitivity over being "tarred" as the illegitimate father of a black baby; and I suspect he does support limited affirmative action. Affirmative action isn't real nasty to me, but I understand your pain here.

I'm more interested in the dialogue, if any, our grandchildren have about race. You and I are sort of trapped by our backgrounds. I check the box because my race is defining for me -- it's the way I have been defined and the way I've defined myself. Obviously, it doesn't define you -- you're very lucky to think that way, in some respect. Race is less defining for my children but they still check the boxes, without any encouragement from me.

It's fine that you don't want to identify yourself in a certain way, but I will get offended if you tell me how I should identify myself or tell me that my race isn't defining for me, much the same way you'd get offended if I told you to pigeon-hole yourself into a racial box. And if the Government has a legitimate need to know the racial composition of people within a given area -- and in most cases they do -- then I'm willing to help the Government out -- I don't want there to be any under-reporting of groups.

Now, if you really think that race is unimportant, why not check the box as Black, afterall we're all descendants of Mitochondrial Eve?

I've guess we've wondered a bit off-topic, but I was surprised that people like Condi Rice, Colin Powell, and JC Watts didn't show up for the RNC. Instead, all we got was Michael Steele. Yes, some of that had to do with Obama, and Rice and Powell were part of the old regime, but so is Elaine Chao and she was the first person McCain met in the audience from his speech! I do believe McCain, unlike his party, is more progressive on these issues; however, if he did get elected, there's the likelihood that he would be captured by his party over these issues -- it happened before with the MLK birthday and Confederate Flag issues.

[samclem]

ChrisC,
Thanks for the deep answer. As I've said before--I gain new insight here every day.

Or maybe it is "incite" ? .

[haha]

Originally Posted by Cantuar

People have said time and again they'd prefer to vote for a Muslim than an atheist, despite not trusting Muslims, because "at least they believe in something."

Atheists believe in something. Mostly their own superiority.

Ha

[haha]

Originally Posted by samclem

Obviously, I meant Shia have been oppressed by Su'ni. Just seeing if anyone was paying attention--I guess not.

Another possibility is that some of us have tired of correcting the many misstatements that appear, or are trying to be polite. Which often takes an enormous effort.

[FUEGO]

Originally Posted by haha

Atheists believe in something. Mostly their own superiority.

Ahhh... Atheists. The last group that you can openly make fun of in a socially acceptable manner (except white men ).

[Cantuar]

Originally Posted by haha

Atheists believe in something. Mostly their own superiority.

Ha

Apparently that stunning insight has been lost on all the people who would prefer to vote for a believer in just about any religion because "at least they believe in something."

[armor99]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

People are bitter because the middle class engine is out of gas. Some people will say its because it's carrying to much of a social load.. but I say it's because a coterie of extreme power and wealth has essentially drained the tank. People are bitter because there are fewer and fewer low-medium skilled jobs that pay a wage a family can live on.

I always find the "blame the rich" mindset fascinating. From your above statements you seem to believe that society, the rich, government, or basically anyone else, has "taken" things from the middle class. Why do you believe that for one man to get richer, many others must be made to be poorer? New wealth is created all of the time in the US. And all of that wealth changes hands voluntarily does it not?
An example I like to give is the rise of Ebay. Arguably one of the most perfect business models I have ever heard of. I still have to look it up, but I would imagine their return on investment is well past 30%. Are all of the people that willingly choose to use Ebay held at gunpoint somehow and forced to give over their money to the "wealthy" owners? Certainly not... They provide a service that people want.... think it is a fair price... so they use it. If Ebay suddenly decided to charge $1000 for each listing, they would probably go bankrupt quickly. Why? Because no one would WANT to use their services any more. All voluntary... no force that I can see here.

As for there being no low to medium skilled jobs left, why do you believe it is anyones responsibility to provide these jobs for anyone? There are no jobs for typewriter technicians anymore, is it the govt responsiblity to keep those folks employed? Your life is your own responsibility, if your current path in life is not producing the results that you want.... then go out and change that. Will everyone succeed in life? No probably not... But the great thing about the US is that there is no law preventing people from trying to better their lives. There are no gaurantees on your life, the best you can hope to do is give it your best shot, gain knowledge from others when you can, and educate yourself as much as you can.
As I have often mentioned, the only way for their to be absolutely NO poor people in america is for everyone to have EXACTLY the same. I do not think that anyone would like that very much....