Gas Tops $4 A Gallon

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by Wags

The use of alternate fuels whether it's the use of corn, sugar cane or whatever are worth considering

There is no way that Brazil can compare to the U.S as far as consumption. But what I am saying that it appears to be working for them in that they are beginnging to wean themselves off of foreign oil.

Problem with all this bio fuel production is it takes up a lot of land space that could be used for something other than fuel, food comes to mind,also a lot of the people growing crops for fuel have no problems chopping down forests and wildlife habitat to make more room to grow the crops for bio fuel,guess its a trade off
Saw a documentary the other day on discovery channel about Brazil and its bio fuel,seems they are already self sufficient in their need for fuel,they dont need to import any oil for automotive use.The views of their sugar cane fields was awesome,from horizon to horizon nothing but sugar cane.

[TromboneAl]

We've talked about whether plastic bags make a difference. China reportedly uses three billion plastic bags per day, and they are going to ban them.

China bans free plastic bags - CNN.com

Poking holes in China's plan to ban plastic bags - Los Angeles Times

[RetiredGypsy]

They had a History Channel three or four hour special on the history of oil several months ago. It was amazing what all comes from oil byproducts.

On finding new means of fueling our transportation, how do you compare against MPG? I've heard MP$, but could that actually work? Even during inflation, a gallon is a gallon. A new car you buy sounds great because it gets better than 6 MPG over what you current car has. But how would a car dealer try to sell you on a new car that costs $0.06 a mile when the last time you bought a car they advertised that it only cost you $.04 a mile? Would you have to sit down with a customer and give them an economy lesson?

[Marquette]

Originally Posted by RetiredGypsy

On finding new means of fueling our transportation, how do you compare against MPG? I've heard MP$, but could that actually work? Even during inflation, a gallon is a gallon. A new car you buy sounds great because it gets better than 6 MPG over what you current car has. But how would a car dealer try to sell you on a new car that costs $0.06 a mile when the last time you bought a car they advertised that it only cost you $.04 a mile? Would you have to sit down with a customer and give them an economy lesson?

Potential and actual miles per gallon per person... but that ignores pickups or other utility trucks where hauling ability is paramount. Maybe potential and actual miles per gallon per TEU.

A bus would have a high potential miles per gallon per person, but if it only has a few passengers then a car with the same number of passengers would have a higher actual miles per gallon per person. Simple!

[BoutDone]

Originally Posted by Wags

Folks, what do you think of Brazil's use of sugar cane to make ethanol?

It appears to be working for Brazil.

Brazil's use of ethanol is not without problems.

Most ethanol apologists like to use the example of Brazil. Unfortunately, I livein Brazil and I see no ethanol revolution here. In fact, the heavily subsidized ethanol program (Pro-Alcool) used to be an ecological and social disaster. From 1975 to 1989, the Brazilian government spent nine billion dollars in subsidies for ethanol production (and that's not counting special loans, that were never paid, from state-owned banks): Nine billion dollars in a country like Brazil (where one can buy a can of soda for less than fifty cents of a dollar) is a pornographic amount of money.


Large areas of land were wasted for monoculture (some people complain one of the most fertile lands of the country, in the Ribeirão Preto region, is being degraded by sugar cane monoculture), semi-slave (and child) labor were heavily used. Nasty environmental problems were only surpassed in the 1990's, like the pollution of rivers by vinhoto (produced in ethanol refining) and crop burning (until the mechanization of the crops, that technique were used to cut sugarcane).


There are other factors that are allowing Brazil to gain energy independence.

The Americas - WSJ.com

Not the least of which is their Government's attitudes on exploration and the environment.

We should learn from our neighbors from the South.

[TromboneAl]

On finding new means of fueling our transportation, how do you compare against MPG? I've heard MP$, but could that actually work? Even during inflation, a gallon is a gallon.

Resign yourself to the fact that people are going to talk about MPG even when it makes no sense ("That plug in hybrid lets you get 100 MPG!").

If it's pure electric, I want to hear miles per killowatt hour (MPKWH), but I haven't seen or heard that yet.

If it's a plug-in hybrid, you'll never get a meaningful figure, since it depends on how long your trips are. Drive 20 miles/trip, and you'll probably never use gas. Drive 1,000 miles, and the KWH are irrelevant.

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by TromboneAl

Resign yourself to the fact that people are going to talk about MPG even when it makes no sense ("That plug in hybrid lets you get 100 MPG!").

If it's pure electric, I want to hear miles per killowatt hour (MPKWH), but I haven't seen or heard that yet.

If it's a plug-in hybrid, you'll never get a meaningful figure, since it depends on how long your trips are. Drive 20 miles/trip, and you'll probably never use gas. Drive 1,000 miles, and the KWH are irrelevant.

Actually, I've seen the plug-ins listed with both figures side-by-side. One for short trips, one for long trips.

Tesla shows km/MJ (kilometers per Mega-Joule) - sure, most people's eyes would glass over, but if you just use it as a figure of merit, and put it on a graph with other vehicles, it makes sense. I'm almost afraid to think how many people probably would not be able to calculate mpg (even with a calculator), but the number still 'works' for them.

Tesla Motors - well-to-wheel




-ERD50

[RetiredGypsy]

Originally Posted by TromboneAl

Resign yourself to the fact that people are going to talk about MPG even when it makes no sense ("That plug in hybrid lets you get 100 MPG!").

Or they'll do like Bose: give you no relevant information to make a comparison to other brands but still say theirs is the best. Buy a FORD, you'll get more SMILES per MILE than any other car out there; it's a BIG CAR in a SMALL PACKAGE!

[Wags]

Gas in some parts of Texas is below $4 a gallon

Lubbock - $3.84 (Bolton's) - -6/17/08
Abilene - $3.84 - 6/18/08

Do you think that Mr. Bush's and Mr. McCain's demands/ideas to drill off the U.S coast is good thing?

If it does happen does anyone think that we will see a dip in gas prices anytime soon?

Will Congress or the states go along with this demand/idea to drill of the U.S coast?

Where is the GREAT Al Gore to lead us in our time of need?

God Bless Us All

[OAG]

Originally Posted by Wags

Gas in some parts of Texas is below $4 a gallon

Lubbock - $3.84 (Bolton's) - -6/17/08
Abilene - $3.84 - 6/18/08

Do you think that Mr. Bush's and Mr. McCain's demands/ideas to drill off the U.S coast is good thing?

If it does happen does anyone think that we will see a dip in gas prices anytime soon?

Will Congress or the states go along with this demand/idea to drill of the U.S coast?

Where is the GREAT Al Gore to lead us in our time of need?God Bless Us All

I doubt the price will decrease. But politicians will just say something like "we kept the price from going up as high as it would have if we did not do XYZ".

[kumquat]

Try Canadian prices. This is C$/litre near Dawson City, Yukon. It works out to $6.39 per US gallon with the C$ at par.

[Kwirk]

I don't know about relative cost but hydrogen generation does not necessarily involve direct CO2 production. For example, electricity from nuclear, solar, or wind sources can be used to separate hydrogen from water. It's also possible to generate hydrogen from biomass.

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Kwirk

I don't know about relative cost but hydrogen generation does not necessarily involve direct CO2 production.

All the mass produced hydrogen today (and in the near future) certainly does create CO2.

For example, electricity from nuclear, solar, or wind sources can be used to separate hydrogen from water.

What a waste of renewable energy! See my post a few up:

Early Retirement Forums - View Single Post - Gas Tops $4 A Gallon

Once you have some electricity produced by a renewable source, use it to charge a battery - don't bother converting it to hydrogen, transporting the hydrogen around, filling your car with it, carry that hydrogen (and tanks and fuel cells) around- just to turn it back into electricity again! Just charge your battery. About 3X more efficient.

It's also possible to generate hydrogen from biomass.

And how far along is that technology? I suspect that batteries and other green sources of electricity will outpace it.

-ERD50

[Wags]

CBS News - Clean Coal - Pipe Dream Or Next Big Thing?
Coal Industry Launches Ad Campaign To Support Energy Alternative, But Some Say Technology Hasn't Caught Up Yet

Clean Coal - Pipe Dream Or Next Big Thing?, Coal Industry Launches Ad Campaign To Support Energy Alternative, But Some Say Technology Hasn't Caught Up Yet - CBS News

Excerpts from the article

The cleanest coal plant in North America is operated by Tampa Electric, in the middle of rural Florida. They call it clean because they don't burn coal exactly - they mix it with water and oxygen and convert it into a gas.

According to company president John Ramil, gasifying coal allows the company to remove pollutants like sulphur, nitrogen and soot, which virtually eliminates acid rain.

"And you can do it much cleaner than with the conventional coal technology," says Ramil.

That's the good news. But here's the problem.

"There is no such thing as clean coal," says James Hansen, NASA's expert on global warming, who says all coal plants, even TECO's, still emit millions of tons of carbon dioxide - the most threatening greenhouse gas.

"There is no coal plant that captures the carbon dioxide and that's the major long-term pollutant," says Hansen.

End of excerpts.

Interesting article.

Whether it will work or not only time and money will tell.

God Bless Us All

[Wags]

CNN - U.S.: Oil production has not met demand

U.S.: Oil production has not met demand - CNN.com


Story Highlights from the article

U.S. Energy Sec: Oil price rises because oil production not kept pace with demand

Meeting of oil-producing and -consuming nations will be held Sunday in Jeddah


Saudi adviser blames speculators, currency fluctuations, economy for oil price rises

Adviser to Saudi oil minister says supply and demand situation is normal

End of highlights.

Hopefully the price of gas and other fuels will start to go down.

God Bless Us All

[Wags]

NBC News - Cost of gas rises 10 cents a gallon in two weeks
Average cost for a gallon of regular is $4.10, Tulsa has the cheapest

Cost of gas up 10 cents a gallon in two weeks - Oil & energy - MSNBC.com

Excerpts from the article.

A national survey shows consumers across the nation are paying an average of 10 cents a gallon more for gasoline than they were two weeks ago.

The cheapest gas was in Tulsa, Okla., where the price for regular was $3.76 a gallon.

The California cities of Los Angeles and Fresno tied for the nation's highest gas: $4.59 a gallon for regular.

End of excerpts.

Here in my neck of the W. Texas prairie it is holding at $4.12 a gallon.

God Bless Us All

[HFWR]

$3.889 at Costco yesterday...

Minus the 3% rebate!

[Kwirk]

Originally Posted by ERD50

Once you have some electricity produced by a renewable source, use it to charge a battery - don't bother converting it to hydrogen, transporting the hydrogen around, filling your car with it, carry that hydrogen (and tanks and fuel cells) around- just to turn it back into electricity again! Just charge your battery. About 3X more efficient.

All good points. Is charging a battery as fast as filling a hydrogen tank? A long trip could get very tiring recharging batteries several times per day. Maybe we could have a battery exchange program like with propane tanks!

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Kwirk

Is charging a battery as fast as filling a hydrogen tank? A long trip could get very tiring recharging batteries several times per day. Maybe we could have a battery exchange program like with propane tanks!

Not today, but there are some batteries in the lab that can be charged in a minute, and there are 'super-caps' that charge as fast as you can 'feed' them. I don't know if either of these will be practical anytime soon.

They could do battery packs that are swappable at a station. Slide a dead one out, slide a recharged one in . Right now, they are just too integrated into the vehicle for that, because they are so large, but in a couple generations, maybe.

I think the series hybrids ( or 'extended range' ) electrics will be what we see, until we get another 5-10x improvement in batteries. Like the planned Chevy Volt. Run fully electric for all your trips under 40 miles, a small engine kicks in to charge the batteries for extended trips. That engine can be designed to run on anything, it just runs flat out to recharge the batteries until they are at a decent level, so you don't need to worry about torque curves, how it accelerates, or anything. It is optimized for one speed. They are keeping the Chevy Volt design modular, so they can drop in different power plants as needs dictate.

If it could run just 10 miles on electric, I'd be electric for 90% of my driving. But I think they need 40 miles worth of batteries, just to get enough power for acceleration. They go hand in hand. The newer A123 batteries could change that, they have higher burst power - good for a plug-in hybrid, but wasted if you have enough for long trips w/o the range-extender engine.

-ERD50