Illegal Immigrant Births - At U.S Taxpayer's Expense

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Its awful easy Caroline. Our health care system is a mess. Our economy is a mess. We have lots of problems.

Easiest thing some folks can do is blame someone else for why we have all these problems, even if they dont have a whole lot to do with them.

Polarizing demonization. And a lot of folks who dont understand that our greatest strength is from being a country of immigrants.

[ladelfina]

Amen, CFB. It's the tactic of "divide and conquer".

[Htown Harry]

Originally Posted by Caroline

We could decide to argue forever about poor brown people and what they're damn well not entitled to. Or we could take a break from the old practice of drawing lines in the sand, and explore new ways of making life better for all of us.

Just a thought.

Well said.

However, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Wags, Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs or - at the other end of the spectrum - Bill Maher. Some folks are just hell-bent for being provocative and judgmental.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by Caroline

We could decide to argue forever about poor brown people and what they're damn well not entitled to. Or we could take a break from the old practice of drawing lines in the sand, and explore new ways of making life better for all of us.

I hope you called out "poor brown people" as just an example and not an inclusive list of those who deserve aid. Picking a race or color for preferential treatment, IMO, isn't the way to go.

[dex]

This is what I am for
1. Fair legal immigration -
2. Immigration diversity - that means from all around the world
3. Equal opportunity in immigration
4. A living wage (this is not the same as the mimimum wage)
5. Employee benefits (health care, 401K etc.)

Those who support the current illegal immigration might be able to spout tenuious platitudes to support their positon. But the position is a harmful one to many people.

Every country has the right to control their immigration for ovious reasons.

Some might say that those who support the current illegal immigration are racist because by default illegal immigration favors the "brown" people who can walk here and pevents the Africans , Chinese, South Asians, Carribian for example, from coming here (immigration quotas would have been raised if not for all the illegal immigration). And this is what I think those that are in favor of the current illegal immigration are afraid of - others from around the world of colors they don't like. They prefer the "brown" ones over the others.

So, you can put me down as one person who does not support the racist illegal immigration policy that others support.

So if you are for the racist illegal immigration make your case on logic not platitudes.

[samclem]

I got an email tonight that said Mexico was pulling out of the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

According to President Calderon, "Pretty much everyone who can run, jump, or swim has already left the country."

[Wags]

Originally Posted by Htown Harry

Well said.

However, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Wags, Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs or - at the other end of the spectrum - Bill Maher. Some folks are just hell-bent for being provocative and judgmental.

Hey let's hope that you do not pass out from holding your breath.

This is fine group of characters that you have bunched me with - let's see Rush Limbaugh is a Republican conservative, Lou Dobbs is somewhere in the middle, Bill Maher is a liberal and I am an independent. The only thing that I MIGHT have in common with these individuals is that we ask for our government to enforce the current immigration laws. So what is so provocative and judgmental about that?

Oh, I forgot I also advocated that people be responsible for their actions.

--------------- --------------------------- -----------------

Bestwifeever quote: "The story is about already-pregnant women crossing into the US from Mexico just so their child can be born a US citizen. They have no money so cannot pay for the care, but they are not coming for the "free" care (it would likely not cost anything in Mexico either) but for the citizenship for the baby. Sad."

As bestwifeever posted the story is about already-pregnant women coming to the U.S so that their child can be born a U.S citizen.

GOD BLESS US ALL

[youbet]

Dex.....

When I first read your post, it seemed like you were going a little over the top. But, you know, upon a re-read, you do have a good point. We do need to do something to keep the flow of immigrants into our country representative of the world and not just of one neighboring country.

So you're suggesting we say who gets to come and that selection process is even-handed in terms of race and geographic origin?

Sounds good. Sadly, we have a long way to go in terms of being able to control who is here. It will be hard to implement and there is much internal resistance to even attempting to have that control, at least as far as "walk-in" traffic is concerned.

[dex]

Originally Posted by youbet

Dex.....

So you're suggesting we say who gets to come and that selection process is even-handed in terms of race and geographic origin?

Thank you and yes.

If you take a look US immigration history it has been motivated by workforce needs. In the 70s the immigration mix was changed from favoring Europeans to include more from around the world.

If the workforce expantion over the past 15 years was met with legal immigrants the benefits to the USA would be great
- A diverse workforce from around the world
- Better assimilation in the the US culture
- Money from the legal immigrants flowing around the world to their home towns - helping thier countries
- Improved wages and benefits for those US citizens on the lower end of the economic scale because we would not have excess labor keeping wages and benefits low
- A better matching of workforce needs with the immigrants

These are some of the things; those that support the current "racist" illegal immigration policy are against.

My post might look over the top but it really isn't. When someone say what they are for, you have to look at how it is put into practice and what they are not for as a result of their position.

It is so much easier to think about the illegal immigrants that are here - in front of you. Think about the poor person from Africa (Somolia for example) that is not here because of illegal immigration. They are against that person.

I think it takes courage to hold my position. It takes time to explain; when it is so much easier to say let the illegals in - they are poor. But I am speaking up for those who don't have a voice. If I can change a few minds; or have them question; or give them another point of view - then it is worth it.

I know what I have to say will not influence some - platittues are so much more comfortable than facing the fact that illegal immigration does more harm than good.

[Brat]

The reason why prenatal care and childbirth is provided free (or almost free) to the poor is for the heath of the baby. Any person born here is a US citizen. If they are unhealthy because of poor prenatal care they are poor US citizens in need of even more expensive health care.

Least we think that we should only permit the highly educated to immigrate, the US also needs unskilled workers willing to do difficult jobs. Our workforce needs look like a bar-bell skill wise.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by Brat

Least we think that we should only permit the highly educated to immigrate, the US also needs unskilled workers willing to do difficult jobs. Our workforce needs look like a bar-bell skill wise.

Agreed. But Dex's point that we need immigrants of all races and nationalities really hit home with me. Educated or not, immigrants should come based on a fair, even-handed quota process that is inclusive of all the world's citizens. Lack of even a semblance of control over the entry process for the past couple of decades as led to a severe lack of diversity in immigrants.

[haha]

Originally Posted by youbet

Dex.....

When I first read your post, it seemed like you were going a little over the top. But, you know, upon a re-read, you do have a good point. We do need to do something to keep the flow of immigrants into our country representative of the world and not just of one neighboring country.

So you're suggesting we say who gets to come and that selection process is even-handed in terms of race and geographic origin?

Sounds good. Sadly, we have a long way to go in terms of being able to control who is here. It will be hard to implement and there is much internal resistance to even attempting to have that control, at least as far as "walk-in" traffic is concerned.

You may have left out mention of perhaps the most egregious discrimination of all. A major problem that is hardly being addressed is that we have no good way of being sure that aliens from other planets are not discriminated against either on the basis of geography or morphology or even basic biochemistry.

I believe that we should shut down completely all earthly immigration until this pressing inequity can be studied and resolved to everyone's satisfaction. America should not be a welcome wagon only for the poor of this world. It is our moral duty to find the poor of other worlds and bring them here, asap.

Ha

[chinaco]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

I would say America should welcome these new citizens. Doesn't the media deride Europe and Japan with their aging populaces? As my old boss used to say (to my irritation): Problem? or Opportunity?

Does it seem so draconian to you that a country would want to control the inflow of illegal immigration?

Yes... most Americans are not happy about the state of things. And the vast majority are against illegal immigration. This is a real problem.

It is about Illegal entry into the country. Plus we (tax payers) are paying for people who do not contribute to the tax base.

The illegal immigration problem is a farce. That fence being built is fine... but it will not solve the problem. The government is going to have to go after businesses that hire them.

A zero tolerance law such as, the owner will go to jail and massive fines on the business will stop it immediately.

That is the way to control it.

Then, allow entry for work with temporary work permits.


This issues is not about immigration. It is about illegal immigration, smuggling, organized crime, and more than a few criminals coming across the border.

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by chinaco

....... The government is going to have to go after businesses that hire them.

A zero tolerance law such as, the owner will go to jail and massive fines on the business will stop it immediately.

That is the way to control it.

Well, I happen to have just a bit of experience in this area (25 yrs) & I agree with your intentions here chinaco, but this will never be effective without a tamper proof machine readable national ID card that can be swiped through a reader that will pull up the bearers photo & fingerprints from a national database - probably with a chip imbedded with biometrics in it too.

There's some little things in the law about "presumption of innocence" and "knowingly" employing illegal aliens that hamper prosecution of worksite enforcement cases. Not to mention American judges and juries sympathy for small business people when they see them drug into court by the big bad govt.

If the American people aren't ready for a national ID card biometric database - they need to plan on tightening down the border further (a lot's been done already & it's expensive, but working) - kick all the current illegal residents out (yes, Virginia, it can be done - despite the naysayers)

I also have a bit of a problem with further burdening small businesses with govt laws, regulation, paperwork - effectively holding them responsible for the federal government not doing the job of controlling the borders.

Originally Posted by chinaco

Then, allow entry for work with temporary work permits.

We already have several temporary worker programs - one of which is quite large - congress & the pres can raise the # of entrants under these programs any year they want.

We also have several de-facto amnesty laws on the books already too.

Originally Posted by chinaco

This issues is not about immigration. It is about illegal immigration, smuggling, organized crime, and more than a few criminals coming across the border.

This is truer than most people who like to spout off about illegal aliens know.

[Brat]

Texarkandy, you are correct.

I would also add that historically, when there is a major difference in the economies of countries that share a common border, illegal immigration will be a major issue. If we do not accommodate our poorer neighbor's poorest citizens there will be social instability at our doorstep. Most of the immigrants that arrive in the US are energetic and optimistic. If they cease to be optimistic then they will turn that energy elsewhere in their home country. Trying to get Mexico to eliminate the need of their citizens to immigrate is complicated, but the US needs to work on that.

Oh, and Mexico has its own illegal immigrant problems from their south.

Least US citizens get too proud, unless you are a Native American or arrived in the last two generations, many of your ancestors arrived in North America before there was any immigration control and they came here for economic opportunity. Odds are Native Americans immigrated to and around this continent for economic opportunities before the arrival of the Europeans, whose diseases decimated their population.

[Notmuchlonger]

Why cant a system be set up that people come over legally and documented?

[haha]

Originally Posted by Brat

Texarkandy, you are correct.

I would also add that historically, when there is a major difference in the economies of countries that share a common border, illegal immigration will be a major issue. If we do not accommodate our poorer neighbor's poorest citizens there will be social instability at our doorstep.

Better on our doorstep then here in USA.

Most of the immigrants that arrive in the US are energetic and optimistic.

Unless you speak Spanish and hang around with lower class immigrants, how would you know what they are looking for, or what their long term plans are?

Oh, and Mexico has its own illegal immigrant problems from their south.

For sure, and very few if any are planning to stay in Mexico. Mexico is a big funnel, gathering the underclass from Central America, adding its own poor, and evacuating them onto California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

Least US citizens get too proud, unless you are a Native American or arrived in the last two generations, many of your ancestors arrived in North America before there was any immigration control and they came here for economic opportunity.

Absolutely true. But wouldn’t you allow that the world and the national needs of the US have changed over these centuries and decades? Must we say, "We once welcomed all immigrants, so this must continue? Anything else would be Un-American."

Sounds kind of dumb to me.

Ha

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Originally Posted by Notmuchlonger

Why cant a system be set up that people come over legally and documented?

Because then they'd have to be paid $10 an hour instead of $1 an hour, get benefits, be signed up for social security and medicare, yada yada yada. And nobody would hire them as a result. Plus we're so low on lazy angry legal citizens who actually want to do these crappy jobs for minimum wage so there'd be no cost effective labor pool to do them.

And entire classes of products and services would immediately become too expensive to be produced or offered.

Many fruits and vegetables that are labor intensive to pick would just disappear. Farmers would sell their land to developers. Most people wouldnt be able to afford their landscaper or child care and some would have to leave the workforce to care for children and home. Roof jobs would cost twice as much. Home construction prices would skyrocket.

Robbed of easy labor opportunities, immigrants would still cross the border to commit crimes and transport drugs and weapons. That'd be their only remaining option. There is absolutely no way to economically seal the borders of a country this size. But we'd try, and spend 10x the amount that illegal immigration costs, lose the benefits, and still not fully stop the flow of people.

But gosh, the insurance companies, drug companies and hospitals could retain an extra ~3% a year in profits. Do you really think they'd all cut their costs and hand back the money they're no longer paying out in immigrant health care?

There'd be a boom in military and security headcount and the associated equipment. Lo