Illegal Immigrant Births - At U.S Taxpayer's Expense

[youbet]

Originally Posted by bright eyed

For example, how many irish or canadian immigrants do you know are questioned about their legal status?

I only know a few of them, but there are about 50k undocumented Irish immigrants in the country living in fear of deportation or other action by the govt. Both Hillary and McCain seem interested in trying to fix that. Considering that the undocumented Irish try to keep a low profile (no standing on street corners looking for work), it's surprising they need to be concerned, but apparently they do.

The Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform

Irish Illegal Aliens Win Clinton as Ally of Immigration Law Change - March 9, 2006 - The New York Sun

I do agree with you that accents or physical appearance should not be a factor in determing who should be checked for citizenship. Rather, I believe everyone should be checked without regard to race, creed, national origin, language, accent, appearance, etc. But, this thread has been going on for ten pages and clearly not everyone agrees with that.

[chinaco]

To those of you that think that illegal immigration is OK, A few questions:

• What should be done about the current illegal immigration issue with Mexico?
• Should we just ignore it and continue to let it happen?
• [a little rhetoric] Should we just open the door and let anyone enter legally or illegally?
• What is a reasonable set of limits?

It would seem to me that we need to have an orderly and controlled system for entry into the US.

People who would like order in immigration are not all xenophobes or racist. That seems a bit extreme.

[Wags]

CNN News - Prosecutors: U.S. sailors' marriages a scam

Prosecutors: U.S. sailors' marriages a scam - CNN.com

CNN article highlights excerpts

-Eastern European women are accused of marrying sailors to stay in U.S.

-Sailors receive marriage benefits they ware not entitled to, court papers said

-Investigators say sailors were in on the scam that cost Navy about $500,000

-Some brides issued military ID cards, exposing security risk, said investigator

End of excerpts.

This is an interesting article that shows to what extremes people will go to get a green card and to what extremes others will take to make a fast buck.

GOD BLESS US ALL

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Originally Posted by chinaco

To those of you that think that illegal immigration is OK, A few questions:

• What should be done about the current illegal immigration issue with Mexico?
• Should we just ignore it and continue to let it happen?
• [a little rhetoric] Should we just open the door and let anyone enter legally or illegally?
• What is a reasonable set of limits?

It would seem to me that we need to have an orderly and controlled system for entry into the US.

People who would like order in immigration are not all xenophobes or racist. That seems a bit extreme.

No, but a whole lot of them are. It starts with the thought "I hate mexicans!" and ends up coming out verbally as "We need better immigration controls!". The "illegal" issue is just a red herring.

Also, I dont think anyone here has said or will agree that illegal immigration is good or desirable. I think immigration is good. I think theres nothing we can realistically do to stop illegal immigration and if we did, it'd be hideously expensive and cost a tremendous amount of money. I think you're a [Edited by mode] if you feel that people with an accent or people who dont speak english should be accosted for their papers.

And I still havent seen a concrete elucidation of what the problems are that we're trying to solve, with real data, and the resulting implications of solving these problems. They're taking away our jobs? Bullshit. They're sucking up our tax money? Bullshit. They're destroying our health care and education systems? Bullshit.

So I'd still like to have some actual information before weighing in with hundreds of billions of dollars and changes to the US constitution.

Hell, the Soviets couldnt control their borders and prevent illegal immigration, black markets and drug trade. With THEIR level of civil rights, movement control and the ability to demand identification and documentation from anyone at any time for any reason.

[ChrisC]

Economist Becker and Judge Posner have elucidated most of the major issues with illegal immigration in their blog entry in February 2008.

The Becker-Posner Blog: What (If Anything) to Do About Illegal Immigration--Posner's Comment

[cute fuzzy bunny]

On reading that, it seems to suggest that there isnt a problem, and that doing something about it would create problems.

"The first alternative, which is to do nothing, has a number of attractions, though doing nothing in response to a perceived problem is not in the American grain; fatalism is alien to American culture. Most illegal immigrants are hard-working, many will return to their country of origin after accumulating some savings (but be replaced by others), most do pay taxes but do not receive social security and other benefits, they are less prone to commit crimes than the average American (the reason is that if convicted of a crime they would be deported after serving their prison term), and they consume less health care than the average citizen or lawful resident. Their children attend public schools, which increases the costs to taxpayers, but the parents compensate by working hard for wages that may be depressed because of an illegal worker's precarious status, paying taxes, and receiving few other public benefits besides a free public education for their kids. The fierce hostility that many conservatives feel toward illegal immigrants appears to be a compound of hostility to unlawful behavior (they are illegal immigrants, after all) and of fear that immigrants from Mexico and Central America will alter American culture, which is still primarily northern European. The fear is similar to what many Americans felt about Irish and southern and eastern European immigration in the nineteenth and early twentieth century. The fear proved to be unfounded."

Wow, that sounds familiar.

[Wags]

Here is a song that looks at the issue of illegal immigration from the viewpoint of the Mexicans and some of the other Latin American people that come to our country.

YouTube - De Paisano A Paisano ::: Los Tigres del Norte

GOD BLESS US ALL

[youbet]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Also, I dont think anyone here has said or will agree that illegal immigration is good or desirable.

That's not quite accurate. When folks debating with you have suggested that both the USA and the immigrants would benefit from a formalization of their status, that is, make them legal, you disagreed. At least it sounded as though you were saying that nothing should be done.....status quo.

You seem unable to accept that a number of the contributors to this thread are only against illegal immigration and not immigration in general. I know you have a personal interest in this as you shared information with us about your FIL. Maybe that's clouding your outlook and causing you to see other's points of view in a prejudiced way?

There are a lot of viewpoints being expressed here, not just that everyone else hates Mexicans and you don't. Try to hear what others are saying.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Pot. Kettle.

All irrelevant. The people who think they're conservatives will never go for any broad legalization. The people who think they're liberals will never go for spending the money involved with trying to "close the borders" and ask anyone with an accent for their papers.

I hear what others are saying. Largely somewhere between "I hate people who arent like me", "I'm totally naive about what is and isnt feasible", and "I just want something done, even though I cant point to anyone who has demonstrated that there is more benefit than harm in doing something".

Was there another category I missed while I wasnt listening with my cloudy outlook?

My relationship with my FIL has simply allowed me to actually know and understand someone who has been in this situation. While that might separate me from some angry white guys with an internet connection who dont know and have never met any recent immigrants...legal or otherwise... I dont think its causing any delusional thinking.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Was there another category I missed while I wasnt listening with my cloudy outlook?

First, I understand your deep, personal involvement with the specific case of undocumented Mexican immigrants. Going back and reading your various positions and comments with that in mind, I can see where you're coming from given your personal experiences, relationships, etc.

But there are other categories. The undocumented folks I'm acquainted with aren't Mexican. And they happen to be in situations where formalizing their status so they could obtain a DL, register their businesses and buy insurance, etc., would really help. To say nothing of relief from the fear of jail, deportation or whatever.......

So, given what you've said, I can see why you're arguing for status quo. But for the folks I'm thinking of, some sort of citizenship or equivalent would be a huge plus and there is a lot of lobbying going on by ethnic based organizations to acheive that goal.

In other words, it looks like there isn't a single course of action in the best interest of all groups involved.

Please don't use too broad a brush with your "hates Mexicans" position. It really doesn't apply to everyone suggesting a legalization or formalization of undocumented immigrants.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I never said it applied to everyone. It sure does apply to folks who think anyone speaking in a foreign tongue ought to be stopped and asked to produce their papers, or that speaking with an accent is a good indicator of ones citizenship.

I've also read more than one credible study that said that the principal underlying issue with many (clearly not all) people who express concerns about illegal immigration is specifically with the immigration part, and further that they dont like people whose culture and language they dont understand.

Then there are the people who think its just a matter of throwing up a wall and problem solved! I must admit, having such a simplistic viewpoint on life must be appealing. It has to be a great thing to find something that bothers you, decide its a matter of crucial national policy, and that easy solutions come to mind...

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

I think you're a jackass if you feel that people with an accent or people who dont speak english should be accosted for their papers.

OK - I'm done with this.

[Surfdaddy]

Originally Posted by youbet

Please don't use too broad a brush with your "hates Mexicans" position. It really doesn't apply to everyone suggesting a legalization or formalization of undocumented immigrants.

I agree and take offense on the suggestion that anybody who doesn't like illegal immigration is racist or dislikes Mexicans. That's a quick race card play that is easy to make, but baseless.

I also disagree that you always need data to recognize a problem exists. Just because something is hard to measure is not a reason to pretend you can't do anything about it. Demanding hard data for an unmeasurable situation sounds like an excuse to not solve a problem, or even be willing to recognize that one exists. I can't measure how many people were waterboarded by the CIA, I guess we shouldn't try to change anything.

An earlier poster asked some very good questions - what would everybody really do about this? Do we just forget we have borders and let anybody come in who wants to? If not, what should be done.

Let's quit calling people racist and really explore constructive alternatives.

[armor99]

Hmmm interesting thread so far.... did not realize there was a "soapbox" section until recently. I have read through lots of the postings here, and I have my own views. It starts with this one, first and foremost before all of it.... we are a nation of laws. While it is in fact true that many laws are created, and are still on the books that are unjust, that is NEVER a justification for violating them. People in this country (legal or not) do not have the right to violate the law, just because they feel they are morally wrong, or unjust. That sort of thinking would lead to chaos quickly, because not everyone always believes the same way. If laws are unjust they can be voted out of existance. That is the american way.
Ok.... now that that is out of the way, it is certainly true that illegals here from any country, and for whatever reason, have chosen to violate the laws of this country. (i.e. they snuck in, overstayed visas, etc.) Now it is also true they may feel they have good moral cause etc, but as stated above.... that is still not justification for violating the law.
The estimate of how many illegals are here in the US varies widely, but most would agree it is in the millions range. As much as it might be the just and moral right of a sovereign nation (any nation by the way) to deport any and all foreign peoples that have violated the law, it frankly is just not possible. The logistics of trying to deport millions of people back to their country of origin, would completely bankrupt the US. As much as I personally do not like rewarding criminal behavior, the best course of action is to identify some "path of citizenship" to people here that are willing to work at it to achieve it. Not sure what form that might take, and there are far too many permutation to think of them all. But at least it would finally be known who is here, where they are, etc. With it being understood, that all those going for "citizenship", are not in immediate peril of being deported. After all, they were here illegally for years, why would they suddenly come forward just to be deported anyway.
At the same time this is going on.... the borders must be more fortified. The US as well as any nation on earth, has the sovereign right to determine who is allowed into their country, and who is not. If you believe that no country has that right, then you do not believe in the concept of private property. I also have the right to determine who may enter my home, and who will not. And for any reason of my choosing, agreeable or not, I also have the right to ask anyone in my home to leave as well. In much the same way that I am allowed to put locks on my doors to prevent people from getting in if I choose, the US also has the right to aggressively persue individuals that are attempting to "pick the lock" as it were. Will building a fence or increasing border security stop all of it? I doubt it, but it will make it more difficult, and perhaps slow the problem down so it at least becomes more manageable.
Well then... I think these view are somewhat sensible, logical, and well thought out. Nor did I have to call anyone a nasty name to make my point. These views do not make me a racist, xenophobe, nazi, or any other invective that someone else might wish to hurl at me. Using my house analogy again.... I am the owner of my own home, I decide who gets in, and who is allowed to stay. I close my doors and windows, and lock the doors to protect my home from people I do not wish to be there. Some may agree... others not so much... but these are my views...

[chinaco]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

No, but a whole lot of them are. It starts with the thought "I hate mexicans!" and ends up coming out verbally as "We need better immigration controls!". The "illegal" issue is just a red herring.

I am sure there is some of that going on... but I think most Americans are concerned about illegal immigration. 12 million is getting a little out of control.

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

... I think theres nothing we can realistically do to stop illegal immigration and if we did, it'd be hideously expensive and cost a tremendous amount of money.

Arizona is doing it. Going after the source of the attraction. Businesses get shut down if they hire illegals.

Apparently there are another 20 state legislatures with similar bills being debated.

You can see the pattern most of the rest of the states will eventually follow suit.

This will likely force the US Congress to finally act with immigration reform.

Temporary workers that have not been processed properly will not be hired. Part of that process will involve photo and fingerprinting. If both the prints and facial image don't match the Database... adios.

[ladelfina]

Originally Posted by chinaco

... adios.

Don't you mean "sayonara"?

[kathyet]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

Don't you mean "sayonara"?

If the shoe fits....

[ChrisC]

Well, I think technology will eventually solve the access and entry issues -- we will likely have biometric identification cards for everyone in the country. We're already starting this process for federal employees, with HSPD-12. So, eventually we're going to badge everyone in the USA.

The question is what do we do with the current illegal aliens. Conditional amnesty appears to me to be appropriate under certain circumstances.

This issue, like other wedge issues involving race, culture or religion, is very difficult to debate because there is an element of bigotry that motivates a lot of people's views. Reminds me of the heated debates over school busing in the 1960's and 1970's.

[armor99]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

This issue, like other wedge issues involving race, culture or religion, is very difficult to debate because there is an element of bigotry that motivates a lot of people's views. Reminds me of the heated debates over school busing in the 1960's and 1970's.

I cannot speak for others, but as far as I am concerned... this has nothing to do with race or religion, gender, or anything else for that matter. If there were canadians (or any other group) streaming accross the border illegally, I would feel exactly the same way. Just because someone speaks a different language than I do, or has skin of a different shade, makes no difference. As a matter of fact, I see this as a tactic by some to get what they want, even though most of the time it is intellectually dishonest.
It is the easiest thing in the world today to call someone a racist, homophobe, xenophobe, etc, whether it is based in fact.... or nothing at all. Nothing ever happens to the people that make a false accusation. Yet those that are accused, are tainted forever for a crime not committed at all. It is the same as calling someone a child molester, a rapist, or a wife beater. Once the accusation is made you are never looked at the same way again, reguardless of any wrong doing on your part or not. In my opinion, people that engage in this sort of activity are far worse than any racist could ever be, because even a racist will be honest with you about their hatred towards a particular group. Those that choose to "brand" people are not even being honest about what their true motivations are. For them, it was just the most expediant way to get whatever it is that they wanted.

[Independent]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Also, I dont think anyone here has said or will agree that illegal immigration is good or desirable.

I recall something about how certain industries would be "crippled" if we didn't have illegal immigrants. I inferred that indicated you thought illegal immigration is "good or desirable".

I tried to change your mind, maybe I succeeded.