Illegal Immigrant Births - At U.S Taxpayer's Expense

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by Independent

"amnesty is more humane" to whom? It seems that you're thinking only about the illegal immigrants here.

Yep, that's the point of amnesty. It's targeted to benefit a specific class of persons engaged in illegal conduct. You might not think that's fair or appropriate, but sometimes the arc of fairness and justice goes beyond a specific incident or matter.

Originally Posted by Independent

What about the US born workers who compete with them for jobs?

In many cases, these are the unskilled, laborer jobs that US born workers are not stepping up to the plate and taking, which occurs in most instances where employers can easily hire undocumented aliens.

Originally Posted by Independent

Suppose illegal immigrants were overwhelmingly college educated and english speaking, ready to compete at the top of the income ladder. In that case, I'd find it much easier to accept the non-enforcement of immigration laws (though would still prefer that we change the law and then enforce the new law). But as it is, it seems that the biggest impact of illegal immigration is on the people who can afford it the least.

I guess I'm puzzled by this view. if it's illegal, it's illegal. The laws should be enforced for all, period. They are not being enforced and we're in a quagmire because, as they say, "we've been overtaken by events."

[samclem]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

In many cases, these are the unskilled, laborer jobs that US born workers are not stepping up to the plate and taking, which occurs in most instances where employers can easily hire undocumented aliens.

Sometimes we hear "these are jobs that Americans just will not do." I think the correct statement would be :These are jobs that Americans are not willing to do for the wage we've been paying illegal aliens. And the Americans won't work 7 days per week. And they complain when it is too hot. And they'd eventually form a union."

There are some industries where companies could hire Americans and still be competitive, but the business might make less profit than it does today. There are other cases (e.g. heavy foreign competition from places with lower costs of labor) where the business just can't survive in the US without cheap foreign labor. In some cases, we'd be better off without these businesses (if the resources they utilize can be used to produce better results elsewhere). In other cases, it's possible that guest workers could be allowed into the US to do work (possibly a better alternative than having the business move to where the cheap labor lives).

[haha]

Overall, trying to be competitive with cheap foreign labor is just a race to the bottom, and it is not a way for a poerful country to stay powerful.

Look at Germany. They do work that can pay high wages, yet be globally competitive or in many cases dominant.

Why can't we do it that way?

I am tired of externalizing costs onto citizens so that industries that claim to need cheap foreign labor can continue on.

Ha

[BarbaraAnne]

Originally Posted by haha

I am tired of externalizing costs onto citizens so that industries that claim to need cheap foreign labor can continue on.

Ha

That is the best comment in this entire thread IMHO.

[Wags]

Originally Posted by kathyet

Of course he is trying to set our immigration policies. They need more members to fill the churches coffers people here are leaving the Catholic Church in droves. The Pope needs to clean his own house first before telling America what we need to do..If he is so concerned on human right issues maybe he needs to go to some of these others countries that all these illegals are fleeing to America from and chastise them on thier soil about thier human right abuses. One of my christian principle's say we do not molest children. Until he fires, demotes or just plain kicks these abusers and condoners out of the church he shouldn't say anything. Weighing in on a sensitive issue..my eye.

The Pope can not set our immigration policies but he just might be able to cast some influence. How much remains to be seen.

As for the Catholic Church cleaning it's own house that can also probably be said of some of the other religions as well.

Mr. Bush and America will do what it considers to be in our best interest(s) and what the Pope says or does not say is not going to change unless he finds some willing partners. Just look at the War in Iraq Pope John Paul II spoke out against it and probably conversed with Mr. Bush (his representatives or himself) about it and as we all know the WAR still happened.

GOD BLESS US ALL

[Independent]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

Yep, that's the point of amnesty. It's targeted to benefit a specific class of persons engaged in illegal conduct. You might not think that's fair or appropriate, but sometimes the arc of fairness and justice goes beyond a specific incident or matter.

I think the "arc of fairness" comment means that amnesty may look like a bad idea when you put blinders on, but when you look at the big picture it's the least-bad solution.
When I look at the big picture, I see it as worse than some alternatives. I think some of the difference is in your next comment.

In many cases, these are the unskilled, laborer jobs that US born workers are not stepping up to the plate and taking, which occurs in most instances where employers can easily hire undocumented aliens.

See samclem's comment.
I'm inferring (I may be wrong, correct me if I am) that you're working with an economic theory that says there is a fixed number of jobs at fixed wages in the US. If native-born workers don't want to or can't fill them all, then we should import workers. I think that both the number of jobs and the wages they pay vary continuously, always balancing supply and demand.

For example, a lot of native-born workers don't want to work in meat packing plants. It's an industry with a lot of immigrants, many illegal. Real wages in meat packing have gone down dramatically in the last 30 years. If the wages had stayed up, we'd have native-born workers lining up for these jobs. Why did wages go down? To me, it's supply and demand. The supply of unskilled workers in the US has gone up faster than the demand for unskilled labor. This isn't all about illegal immigrants, but if there are 10 million of them, they're enough to have some impact.

I guess I'm puzzled by this view. if it's illegal, it's illegal. The laws should be enforced for all, period. They are not being enforced and we're in a quagmire because, as they say, "we've been overtaken by events."

I agree with your comment. To clarify mine, I'd say there are two problems with illegal immigration:
First, the fact that most illegal workers are unskilled contributes to a bigger gap between the top and bottom of the economic ladder. I think that democracies work best if that gap is small. If current trends continue, this could get to be a very big deal.
Second, I think that our non-enforcement of immigration laws is bad because it breeds a disrespect for the rule of law in general.

If all illegal workers were highly skilled, it would eliminate the first problem, but do nothing about the second. That would be "better than our current situation", but we would still be left with the second problem.

[youbet]

I'm inferring (I may be wrong, correct me if I am) that you're working with an economic theory that says there is a fixed number of jobs at fixed wages in the US. If native-born workers don't want to or can't fill them all, then we should import workers. I think that both the number of jobs and the wages they pay vary continuously, always balancing supply and demand.

It seems that having a ready source of cheap labor has increased the tendency for lower-middle and middle-middle class Americans to hire out chores they previously did for themselves and which many can only marginally afford to hire out. Examples: landscaping, house keeping, processed foods made in factories staffed by cheap labor, car washing/detailing, nannying, etc. It makes me wonder if and when our economy no longer provides the level of income we've become accustomed to and people go back to doing more for themselves, will this disproportionately impact low wage earners? Will many undocumented and unskilled workers find themselves unable to earn a living here? Will we have a responsibility to provide for them through govt programs? How about the folks back home they are sending money to?

A significant recession could bring up some interesting questions along these lines.

[Wags]

NBC News - Mayor, sheriff at war over immigration sweeps (Phoenix mayor says ‘saturation patrols’ in Ariz. county are discriminatory).

Mayor, sheriff fight over immigration sweeps - Life - MSNBC.com

Excerpts from the article

"Over the past few weeks, Sheriff Arpaio's actions have infringed on the civil rights of our residents," Gordon wrote. "They have put our residents' well-being, and the well-being of law enforcement officers, at risk."

Justice Department officials said they would review Gordon's letter but declined to comment further.

Sheriff: ‘We don’t profile’
Arpaio said it's ironic that Gordon wrote the letter the same day U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials observed his deputies arresting residents and illegal immigrants in the town of Guadalupe and approved of the sheriff's work.

"I think the mayor is disconnected from the people he represents and he doesn't get the point," Arpaio said Saturday. "Now he's going to Washington to confuse the issue and try to get the public against me."

End of excerpts

This article and the Newsweek article Phoenix’s Crackdown on Illegal Immigration | Newsweek Business | Newsweek.com are interesting in that it gives as in insight on how public ELECTED officials, local governments and law enforcement agencies in Arizona are acting and enforcing the laws.

I have friends that live on the Texas border and they are a constant state of fear from the illegal immigrants and drug runners that cross their land during the day and at night. They have no way of knowing who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.

GOD BLESS US ALL

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by youbet

It seems that having a ready source of cheap labor has increased the tendency for lower-middle and middle-middle class Americans to hire out chores they previously did for themselves and which many can only marginally afford to hire out. Examples: landscaping, house keeping, processed foods made in factories staffed by cheap labor, car washing/detailing, nannying, etc. It makes me wonder if and when our economy no longer provides the level of income we've become accustomed to and people go back to doing more for themselves, will this disproportionately impact low wage earners? Will many undocumented and unskilled workers find themselves unable to earn a living here? Will we have a responsibility to provide for them through govt programs? How about the folks back home they are sending money to?

A significant recession could bring up some interesting questions along these lines.

I'm convinced you can slice and dice segments of labor markets and get them to support one's own picture of what's going on here. It could be that an abundant supply of cheap labor depresses real wages in the meat packing industries, but that might not be the case for laborers in the hotel/restaurant service market, or in the construction labor markets where there's a mix of unskilled laborers and skilled trade jobs. And maybe, as you suggest, abundant cheap labor has made many middle class Americans outsource chores they would normally do themselves.

I frequently vacation at the mid-Atlantic Beaches like Virginia Beach, Myrtle Beach, and Hilton Head. I remember many years ago how most of the service jobs at the hotels and resorts were handled by African-American employees (most of whom were native born) then later by a sizeable number of Hispanic laborers and now for almost the last 5 or 6 years almost exclusively by Eastern European workers (many of whom are on student or work permit visas). So, why are these jobs being taken by young people from the old Soviet Union and Turkey, instead of Americans? Last summer at Myrtle Beach and Virginia Beach, most of the cashier jobs at the supermarkets were being handled by these same folks. Maybe you all have an explanation for this, but it appears that a huge factor is that there are jobs people here just don't want anymore, and that this, rather than the supply of cheap labor, causes the out-sourcing to take place in a lot of labor markets.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

Maybe you all have an explanation for this, but it appears that a huge factor is that there are jobs people here just don't want anymore, and that this, rather than the supply of cheap labor, causes the out-sourcing to take place in a lot of labor markets.

Of course it is the cheap labor which causes the outsourcing of these jobs. You don't believe that Marriot could find an American citizen to do these jobs for $20 an hour? You keep saying "Americans don't want these jobs" when you clearly mean "Americans don't want these jobs at these wages." Which is just another way to say "The companies have found it cheaper to hire aliens than American citizens." At least in the cases you cite the aliens are legal, which is probably required since some of the jobs involve handling cash/customer credit cards, etc.

It's also likely that the hotels get a better quality employee (again, for the price they are willing to pay) by hiring a foreign student. They get someone who is concerned about making something of their lives, who already speaks two languages and is going to college (i.e. probably not stupid, probably a self-starter) and the person also knows that he'll be deported to his home country if he/she breaks the law. Compare this to the type of American employee they'd get for the same wage.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by samclem

Of course it is the cheap labor which causes the outsourcing of these jobs. You don't believe that Marriot could find an American citizen to do these jobs for $20 an hour? You keep saying "Americans don't want these jobs" when you clearly mean "Americans don't want these jobs at these wages." Which is just another way to say "The companies have found it cheaper to hire aliens than American citizens." At least in the cases you cite the aliens are legal, which is probably required since some of the jobs involve handling cash/customer credit cards, etc.

It's also likely that the hotels get a better quality employee (again, for the price they are willing to pay) by hiring a foreign student. They get someone who is concerned about making something of their lives, who already speaks two languages and is going to college (i.e. probably not stupid, probably a self-starter) and the person also knows that he'll be deported to his home country if he/she breaks the law. Compare this to the type of American employee they'd get for the same wage.

Actually, this isn't really cheap labor to the employer, in the case of the foriegn "students" taking these resort jobs. In most cases, they are only students in name. The aliens actually pay for all sorts of sponsorship opportunities to work here (and the employer also pays all sorts of other charges associated with work permits and visas and housing). In most instances, these jobs aren't even unionized and other employee benefits seldom apply if the workforce were entirely native. So, I'm not really sure its cheaper to the employer to outsource this work. Yeah, these students speak two languages, but they are limited English proficient challenged as well, even those that are point of service jobs like cashiers. And most of the domestic/chambermaids have a very limited ability to speak English.

Employers are getting a better employee from foreign stock only in the sense that the employee is highly motivated to succeed, for a number of reasons.

I think I've beaten this to death, so I'm out of here now.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by ChrisC

And maybe, as you suggest, abundant cheap labor has made many middle class Americans outsource chores they would normally do themselves.

.

Well, it's my feeling that that is the case. And I'm suggesting that there may come a time when the economic situation of lower-middle and middle-middle class America is such that paying others to do mundane chores for them is no longer practical or even possible. (I think there is a concurrent thread going on talking about this very thing.......people doing more for themselves.)

In that situation, we may have unemployment developing among service workers, and in my neck of the woods that frequently means undocumented folks. I was just conjecturing what that would mean for our normal safety nets. Would we extend unemployment benefits to undocumented folks? Would they just go home? What about if they've been here for years, have kids in school, etc.? These will be interesting issues to resolve if we do wind up in an extended recession. Or if Middle class real wages continue to erode while energy and food prices head to the moon.

Interesting times.......

Edited to add: Here's Steve Earle on the Letterman show with his take on the subject......

YouTube - Steve Earle on The Letterman Show

Or a younger Steve Earle if you prefer.....

YouTube - Steve Earle - City Of Immigrants (Official)

Edited to add: Here are the demographics of my neighborhood.......

Hispanic/Latino: 27.6% White: 61.1% Black: 2.4% Native American: 0% Asian: 7.7% Hawaiian/Pacific Islander: 0% Other: 0.1% Multiracial: 1.1%

What isn't called out in the published demographics is that the white population is itself extremely diverse. When at my favorite grocery, I seldom here anyone speaking English, mostly Eastern European languages.

It's a fun place to live. As Steve Earle says, I don't have to travel to see the world, I just open the door and let the world come in. I just hope the economy holds up so the neighborhood holds together.

[Wags]

UPI - 50 percent of LA workforce are immigrants

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/04/21/50_percent_of_la_workforce_are_immigrants/3251/

Excerpts from the article

Los Angeles is at the leading edge of a U.S. demographic trend, with half of its workforce immigrants, many of them unskilled and speaking little English.

As baby boomers retire, the same pattern will emerge across the country, the Los Angeles Times reported Sunday. Demographers estimate that by 2025 most of the growth in the workforce will be from immigrants.

End of excerpts

It's a very interesting article which just might give the U.S an insight on what the future holds.

GOD BLESS US ALL

[kathyet]

Originally Posted by Wags

The Pope can not set our immigration policies but he just might be able to cast some influence. How much remains to be seen.

As for the Catholic Church cleaning it's own house that can also probably be said of some of the other religions as well.

Mr. Bush and America will do what it considers to be in our best interest(s) and what the Pope says or does not say is not going to change unless he finds some willing partners. Just look at the War in Iraq Pope John Paul II spoke out against it and probably conversed with Mr. Bush (his representatives or himself) about it and as we all know the WAR still happened.

GOD BLESS US ALL

Maybe not trying to set policy but surely trying to influence it..

Maybe since the Catholic Church wants to use so much influence they should set an example....by cleaning their own house first...then the rest "will trickle down"

Please Mr Bush and America in the same context bothers me!!!!! What has Mr Bush done in the best interest of the American people again. He doesn't listen to the people he is supposed to represent let alone listen to the POPE.

[ladelfina]

I read something I don't have time to research now (have some guests coming), so maybe someone who is close to the agricultural scene can comment. The statement was to the effect that: NAFTA broke down trade barriers for (among other things, our old nemesis) US subsidized CORN, flooding the Mexican corn market. Mexican corn farmers couldn't compete and left their farms, perhaps first trying to find employment in the cities or elsewhere in Mexico, but then eventually the pressure forced/sucked many of them up into the US Southwest economies where jobs were available, albeit at some risk.

Unclear whether this was an intended or unintended consequence, but I'd be interested to hear any info others may have on this aspect of the immigration subject.

This brings up the eternal question of how you can have a 'free' market when goods and businesses can move, but people are forced to remain fixed.

[Wags]

Townhall.com - Virtual fence on Mexican border deemed insufficient


Excerpts from the article

The government is scrapping a $20 million prototype of its highly touted "virtual fence" on the Arizona-Mexico border because the system is failing to adequately alert border patrol agents to illegal crossings, officials said.

The move comes just two months after Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff announced his approval of the fence built by The Boeing Co. The fence consists of nine electronic surveillance towers along a 28-mile section of border southwest of Tucson.

Boeing is to replace the so-called Project 28 prototype with a series of towers equipped with communications systems, new cameras and new radar capability, officials said

End of excerpts.

Another government project gone BAD and more $$$$ flushed down the toilet.

In memory of Mr. Al Wilson - rest in peace

YouTube - AL WILSON SHOW & TELL ORIGINAL VIDEO

GOD BLESS US ALL