Illegal Immigrant Births - At U.S Taxpayer's Expense

[A854321]

Having worked in healthcare in Tucson, I can guarantee you that this is nothing new. This was rampant in Tucson 30 years ago, and more years before that.

[Independent]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Heres what I think the presumptions are. That we can make the illegals go away cheaply and easily, we manage to secure our borders without reducing individual freedoms, a whole bunch of problems dry up, the government reduces our taxes for these brazillions of dollars we're doling out to illegals, a whole class of citizens step up to start performing all these jobs for minimum wage,

I'm don't think that I said any of these things. If someone else on this thread has posted these comments, you may want to specify that you are addressing that individual.

costs dont go up much

I said that, and I think it's correct.

You picked an anecdote that you felt emphasized the "high" impact of illegal workers. Re-roofing your house apparantly requires something between 40 and 55 worker-days of labor. That equates to a crew of 4 working full time for 2-2 1/2 weeks. Painting inside and out is another 4 person crew working full time for a week or more. Your house is apparantly is at least 4x as big as mine, and I have 1,200 square feet. If you're in a "booming" area, the house must be worth $1 million. Spending an extra $7,000 (less than 1% of the market price) once in 20 years doesn't seem like a "a lot" of additional cost to me.

But you picked an item with a high content of low-skill labor. Look at all the other things you buy. Things as simple as a loaf of bread or as complex brain surgery have virtually no minimum wage workers.

But the better analysis is the one I provided in the earlier post. I'll try some sample numbers. Maybe 6% of the US workforce is illegal workers. They make about 1/3 the wage of the "average" (as in "mean", not "median") worker. About 70% of the the retail price you pay goes to wages and benefits. If those numbers were perfect, only 1.4% of your total spending goes to wages for illegal workers. If it cost 3x as much to get legal workers to do the same work (highly unlikely, since that suggests we'd have to pay "mean" wages for unskilled work), your total cost goes up 2.8%. That's a couple year's growth in US productivity.

Overall, I think that prices wouldn't go up "much".

[unclemick]

Ben Franklin - 1780's complaining about all those French immigrant's in Philly(read Acadians run out of Canada). Not so much about the Tories we deported to Canada.

We've been dinking around with problem ever since - one way or another.

I think I'll let - Fred on Everything - solve it for me.

heh heh heh -

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Originally Posted by Rustic23

Your rant on this subject is enough to win you 'ignore' status.

Thats okay, you've been on mine for about 4 months. I just click on view post every once in a while to see who's on your lawn this time.

In the meanwhile, this is yet another topic where people are willing to grab onto whatever data supports their predisposed opinion, express their opinions wildly, and never change their minds.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by Independent

Overall, I think that prices wouldn't go up "much".

I agree that "overall" prices would increase minimally. But........ there are specific areas within the economy that would be impacted and special interest groups and political groups who benefit nicely from the current situation. Therefore the wink-wink scenario continues.

[Rustic23]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

In the meanwhile, this is yet another topic where people are willing to grab onto whatever data supports their predisposed opinion, express their opinions wildly, and never change their minds.

Yes and you are one of the best!

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Hey Mr. Never Breaks The Law...I thought you said you were putting me on your ignore list? Not a man of your word?

But you're right. My direct and extensive experience with illegal aliens and examination of what actual facts are available bears little resemblance to the usual racially motivated tirades bolstered by data formed through guessing and presumption.

As far as not changing my mind...hmmm...ten years ago I was a single guy who liked tall blondes, had no intention of getting married or having kids, was an active individual stock trader, had no intention of retiring until I was in my 60's...heck, I even had a mortgage!

Now ten years later I'm retired early, married to a petite brunette, with a son, invested primarily in passive indexed funds and no dang mortgage.

But I still dont blame a whole class of people for inflicting ills they arent responsible for just because they arent the same color I am, nor do I look at enormously complicated issues that arent really solvable and presume that because I dont know anything, that it'll be easy to solve them.

I guess i'm just stubborn.

[Independent]

Originally Posted by youbet

I agree that "overall" prices would increase minimally. But........ there are specific areas within the economy that would be impacted and special interest groups and political groups who benefit nicely from the current situation. Therefore the wink-wink scenario continues.

I'll agree with this. CFB identified a few areas - high labor crops, certain types of construction, and individuals looking for day labor.

Add in the group that favors "compassion" for the illegal workers over all other considerations.

[Rustic23]

I said 'Your rant on this subject is enough to win you 'ignore' status.' I did not say I put you there. I did not place you there because on the one subject you actually know what you are talking about, Computers, I value your post and opinion, and, therefore while this political rant, like many of yours which turn caustic, cause you to deserve an ignore status, that does not mean you get what you earn.

[youbet]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

My direct and extensive experience with illegal aliens and examination of what actual facts are available.......

CFB....... You are the king of the BS'ers on this forum! And modest too!

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Oh come now, there are entire flotillas of BSers around here that compared with...I am not worthy...

Originally Posted by Independent

I'll agree with this. CFB identified a few areas - high labor crops, certain types of construction, and individuals looking for day labor.

And restaurants, house and commercial cleaning, landscaping, child care...and did you know that a surprising percentage of the people working at movie and network studios are illegal aliens? Who do you think puts the sets together, tears them down, feeds the masses and cleans up after them?

Actually a big problem around my area isnt the hispanic illegal aliens, its the ones from the former soviet union.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

BTW, just as a recap:

- A rabble rouser started a no-win thread during which it was alleged that 300,000 mexican women run across the border to have babies in US hospitals, that US taxpayers are footing the bill and that it is destroying border hospitals.

- I quoted several hospital administrators who acknowledged that they have no actual way of counting or determining the legal/illegal status of anyone they treat.

- One of the hospitals is expanding to add additional child delivery capacity...guess the destruction is going pretty well for them.

- The hospital administrators also acknowledged that few of the deliveries they do involve women "running over the border" or swimming a river while in labor, and that the vast majority are undocumented women who have legal spouses or children in the area and have lived in the US for many years.

So other than our lack of a universal health care policy that would resolve the taxpayer issues, which even at 300,000 would be a ridiculously small portion of our health care dollars, it appears that there are an indeterminate number of undocumented women having children in border hospitals, who are thriving economically, and that many of these undocumented women may in fact be legal US citizens since they're married to locals.

But shoot, that isnt that great for a soundbite and you'd be hard pressed to paste more than one angel after your "god bless" with a statement like that...

[Rustic23]

Not to confuse you with facts:

Public Health Costs

[youbet]

Aren't you omiting that you benefit from the low pay and frequently ugly working conditions the undocumented workers are subjected to? You emphasized repeatedly that the economy (for legals) would be devastated if illegals weren't here to work for much lower pay and in often dangerous or unhealthful conditions. So while you seem to speak in behalf of undocumented workers, I wonder if keeping them illegal and low paid isn't more of an advantage to you than to them?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Originally Posted by Rustic23

Not to confuse you with facts

Not a fact in sight! Just to cover this, a fact is something that is actually measurable in a repetitive manner by a well established process.

You have a paper written by former border patrol guards (surely an impartial group) stating their opinions, quoting people who made estimates with no actual basis for their data! The organizations whose data they quote are a collection of organizations who have stated that they are anti immigration (not anti illegal immigrant) and random people who wrote letters to a newspaper or magazine!

How about approaching it this way: nobody asks anyone their documentation status when they are treated in a hospital. So how does anyone gather this information?

The only data thats available is how much total health care cost is not directly paid for by private insurance, medicare/medicaid and the individuals treated.

Presuming that illegal aliens dont seek any more "free" health care than the average uninsured american citizen, that would put the cost in the range of about 1/20th to 1/10th the numbers the former border patrol organization are throwing around.

Anecdotally, my wife is a health care worker and our old town was smack in the middle of illegal fruit picker central. She worked the emergency room and intensive care, and said that she hardly ever saw anyone that looked "illegal" or admitted to being illegal during the process of caring for them. Mostly the emergency room was full of white people that were drunk or on drugs and who had the flu and thought they were going to die.

So perhaps the illegal population seeks LESS "free" health care than average. But again, we're all just guessing.

And we also have that direct quote from the hospital administrator noting that it was his opinion that the undocumented patients were better about paying their bills than the documented ones.

Of course, he's guessing as well since he doesnt know who's who...

Or maybe we can get through all this if someone can tell me what an illegal alien looks or sounds like vs a documented american?

[unclemick]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Oh come now, there are entire flotillas of BSers around here that compared with...I am not worthy...

Actually a big problem around my area isnt the hispanic illegal aliens, its the ones from the former soviet union.

Yep - it's those unmarried(so 'they' say) dirty blondes from Russia and the Ukraine - looking to nail a rich ER that need to be deported.

One just can't be too careful.



heh heh heh - . And I'm only using a shovel - a small one. .

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Originally Posted by youbet

Aren't you omiting that you benefit from the low pay and frequently ugly working conditions the undocumented workers are subjected to? You emphasized repeatedly that the economy (for legals) would be devastated if illegals weren't here to work for much lower pay and in often dangerous or unhealthful conditions. So while you seem to speak in behalf of undocumented workers, I wonder if keeping them illegal and low paid isn't more of an advantage to you than to them?

Well heres the thing. As I mentioned my wifes dad ran over the border and married a US citizen back in the early 60's. So did most of his family. From listening to their stories, even a suckball life here doing crap work was a lot better than what they came from. Still, he put food on the table and a roof over the heads of his wife and three children, put his wife through nursing school, and worked his butt off throughout.

Its really unfortunate that in a lot of circumstances these people are exploited, sexually harassed, threatened with violence and extortion. But is that a function of the innate evil in people, the opportunistic nature of human beings, the artificial situation created by making their presence here 'illegal', or that they're bad people who should have just laid down and died in whatever country they came from rather than try to do something about their lot in life?

I sort of doubt that exploitation would disappear along with the mexicans. I cant think of a place or a period in time where some class of workers wasnt exploited. Which certainly doesnt make it right, but perhaps I'm one of the few people who can see shades of gray and not just black/white. Everyone is exploited to some degree, arent they?

Shoot, I made a ton of money for my old company and they only paid me a few million. Thats a heck of a lot of exploitation...

[youbet]

So why, when folks suggest we gain control over immigration and have folks move in legally, do you resist saying that that would lead to higher wages and devastate the economy? That's where we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. I'd gladly pay 2X for strawberries to relieve suffering. You want bargain basement labor with no rights or benefits.

I understand you already have your $$$. You've told us many times...... and it's an interesting story.

[Wags]

Rustic and Cute Fuzzy I thought I was on both of you ladies' ignore lists and that you did not like my threads. What happen?

Hey both of you ladies need to quit getting your panties in a twist over it and quit fighting amongest yourselves because you are setting a bad example for the rest of us poor ER devils.

Ladies calm down and listen to Waylon Jennings & Hank Williams Jr - The Conversation

YouTube - Waylon Jennings & Hank Williams Jr - The Conversation

GOD BLESS US ALL

[Rustic23]

CFB,
Your entire case is based on 'I talked to some people that work in a hospital'

In 2005, Harris County officials estimate, the district treated 57,072 illegal immigrants about 20 percent of all patients. The total cost for treating illegal immigrants was $128 million, but the hospital district received only $28 million in reimbursements from the federal and state governments. The patients paid about $3 million. The hospital district was left with the rest of the bill, some $97 million paid by Harris County taxpayers.

While they may not ask, they do have a fairly good idea, and their data seems far more accurate than your 'I talked to'