Illegal Immigrant Births - At U.S Taxpayer's Expense

[ladelfina]

yeah, youbet.. I'm staring to figure that out, with your help.

As for the situation, I called it as I saw it. I've never had trouble with cops. I'm always nice (believe it or not). I appreciate they have a job to do, but giving conflicting instructions and then getting mad and yelling at foreigners in English is not likely to elicit the best possible outcome.

bpp, after that first time we just go through separately with separate cards as if we weren't married. No yelling that way. But ya never know. Maybe next time they'll yell at us for not being together.

Youbet, I'll let you know when and where we next come in, so you can come yell at us.

[outtarentals]

Some posters on this thread seem to live in areas of the country that are not heavily impacted by large numbers of non-English speakers in schools and hospitals and jails, so they don't realize what's happening. Why should they get involved? It doesn't affect them - or so they think. Close your eyes and forget about 911. I won't forget it - I lost someone close to me in that horror. That's why we need secure borders - before anything else. That's why we have lines at the airport. That's why we need to know who is entering the country - and why. Maybe it could be done in a better way - but the country has never really recovered from that day. It will take a lot of time. I hope I'm wrong - but I think many of us will never feel really safe again. Still - we haven't had another attack - at least not yet. Must be doing something right.

Incidentally, no one has come up with any figures yet to support the claims about $4 an hour nanny/gardener jobs. How about some real statistics before people throw these numbers around - not just isolated instances from years ago. In Southern California as you drive past where the day workers gather - you see older men coaching newly arrived men on how much to ask per hour. $10 an hour plus lunch is the current asking price for an unskilled laborer with zero English. First thing he learns is to hold up both hands with all fingers extended. At some stop lights and shopping centers your car will be surrounded and sometimes it's hard to move your car. Housecleaners get more and it's probable that in many cases their wages are undeclared and they don't pay any taxes or SS - It's also a given that much of the money goes back to their home country.

Reading through this thread, it's clear that some posters have a personal stake in the legal versus illegal immigrant issue probably because they have a family member or spouse who has entered the country illegally at some time. This explains some of the rhetoric and brings to mind the old saying - The best defence is a good offence.

[Htown Harry]

I found this article interesting from several angles:

Illegal immigrants pay billions in taxes
But many miss their refunds because, fearing deportation, they don't file
By TRAVIS LOLLER
Associated Press

Illegal immigrants pay billions in taxes | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

For example, this quote:

Among those she has assisted is Eric Jimenez, a self-employed handyman who has worked in Nashville for several years. He feels obliged to pay taxes — even though, as Pantoja said, "nothing would happen" to him if he did not. "I have an idea, a mentality, that to be a good citizen you have to pay taxes," he said. "Also, I'm conscious of the fact that the money we pay in taxes supports the schools and all the public services."

He's only one data point, of course, but I was struck by the rarity of similar statements in other "tax time" articles. Good on you, Mr. Jimenez.

This one, however, really blew me away:

"Overall, any type of immigration is a net positive to Social Security. The more people working and paying into the system, the better," Hinkle said. "It does help the system remain solvent." The Social Security Administration drew from census and Immigration and Customs Enforcement data in 2007 to project the effects of higher and lower immigration patterns. If net immigration is high at 1.3 million people a year, the combined trust fund would be exhausted in 2043. But the fund runs out four years earlier if annual net immigration amounts to about half that — 472,500 legal immigrants and 250,000 illegal immigrants.

[Texarkandy]

RE: the comments about CIS (the applications people) & CBP (the inspections people)

CIS has vastly improved their systems the past five years & places a lot of emphasis on customer service. They are still short of the money needed to do the job. A lot of outsourcing in IT systems has not helped. They also have to deal with a lot of really obnoxious US Citizens who think they can bully the agency into approving their friend's & relatives applications (whether qualified or not). You have no idea how much this happens. Seems everybody wants to go to the front of the line - and it's a looong line. At the same time, CIS adjudicators are supposed to weed out the ubiquitous frivolous & outright fraudulent applications while under tremendous pressure from other quarters to just approve everything that comes down the pike.

As to CBP inspections: What a lot of people forget (or don't know) is that the border is a special case legally. This is intentional under the law. The burden of proof is reversed and is upon the applicant for admission to establish to the satisfaction of the inspector they are admissible (whether US or foreign citizen). If you can't or don't want to do that the inspector is fully within his/her rights to turn you around without appeal beyond the first line supervisor. Most Americans aren't familiar with this concept and are expecting an "innocent till proven guilty" standard. More than a few CIS & CBP "customers" think they are at Wal-Mart and trying to cow/bully some poor clerk into issuing a cash refund for something they bought on credit card. I expect CBP has little time for those folks.

Most CIS adjudicators & CBP inspectors are very dedicated, compassionate, capable, and patriotic human beings doing a difficult job under difficult circumstances. Personally, I appreciate the difficult job they do.

[HFWR]

The government has the goods on us, including a national ID card (SSN) and a state ID card (driver's license), tax records, property records, and virtually unlimited subpeona/warranted/warrentless access to our phone, financial, and medical records.

Immigrants should get the same happy privilege to be in the "database"...

[youbet]

Originally Posted by ladelfina

Youbet, I'll let you know when and where we next come in, so you can come yell at us.

Thanks. I'll be one of the "jumpy, squinty-eyed pissed-off" folks you referenced.

It's all relative I guess. I've re-entered the USA at OHare a couple dozen times or so. Admittedly, it's been a couple of years, not since I RE'd, and maybe it's worse now. There have been several instances where the "welcoming staff" has been less than warm and friendly including poor communication skills, rudeness and sometimes they exhibited little concern for my well being or whether they were contributing to me having a good day.

But I've generally found the crew at the airport international terminal to be not much worse than USA government employees in general in their public relations skills. The rude lady at the post office, the folks over at the township office, the guy at the unemployment office, the police officer who gave confusing signals and then yelled when I pulled into the intersection......... Hey, it seems to be part of everyday life.

But whether these unhappy encounters occur at the airport or outside, I try to NOT let the adrenaline start to flow or to show any displeasure and I do try to remain positive and unemotional taking none of it personally. For me, this frequently seems to help and never seems to hurt.

I think travel and immigration have always been tough and it's understandably getting worse. I can't think of anyplace I'd want to immigrate to where the process would be quick, easy and pleasant. And I'm always glad to have the international entry episodes behind me whether I'm in Europe, Asia, SA or the good ole USA.

I'm sorry you and DH have had immigration issues. IMO, don't look for things to get better. The world is getting to be a very crowded and unfriendly place. As the crowding continues and the stuggle for resources increases, countries protecting their turf will only get worse.

[haha]

The PC fog around here is getting so thick that I may puke before and after logging in.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Sounds like you've got a great start on a new diet book Ha..."The Early Retirement Purge"?

[Texarkandy]

So, (after a bit of ugliness there) back to the subject at hand - Illegal Immigrant Births at US Taxpayer Expense - I believe is the title?

The problem seems to be that Mexican Citizens are in increasing numbers crossing the US/Mexico border illegally specifically to have their children here. What their motives are to do this is secondary to the problem at hand - (their motives are primarily so these children can be US Citizens & probably also for better care during the birthing process as an added benefit)

The immediate problem at hand is that border area hospitals & the US taxpayers are having to pick up most of the tab for these folks as they have little or no money & don't pay for their care.

The problem has become further complicated by the increasing number of illegal aliens residing in the United States and having children here - (some who pay their medical bills, but also a not insignificant number who do/can not &, once again, the hospitals & taxpayers pick up the tab. ) This issue has become exacerbated as the government has begun responding to voter outcry by engaging in increased immigration enforcement efforts in the interior - which is catching increasing numbers of illegal aliens with minor children born in the US.

There is a nexus here also to the Health Care debate the US is having now.

Whatever your view on US immigration policies are, or should be - it has been suggested that one solution to some of these problems would be ending the US policy that a person acquires US Citizenship via "jus soli" (commonly referred to as birthright citizenship) and prospectively applying the concept of "jus sanguinis" only (or in combination with a modified "jus soli") to determine who will, and will not, acquire US citizenship.

There is some question as to whether there is even a firm basis for "jus soli" in the law anyway.

Personally, while I believe "jus soli" had it's time & place in the US in the past, for a variety of reasons it is no longer a beneficial policy for the United States.

If we want more people to immigrate to the US (& I'm not against that) congress & the president should work on expanding & modernizing our legal immigration policies to admit the numbers & types of people we want to have here as immigrants (& prospective US Citizens.)

I note a number of countries have been modifying their laws & restricting their policies as regards "jus soli" citizenship for illegal aliens. Notably: Britain, Ireland, France, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, India....

In light of that, is the US really so out of touch with the rest of the world in considering this issue?

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

The problem seems to be that Mexican Citizens are in increasing numbers crossing the US/Mexico border illegally specifically to have their children here.

And yet there is no reliable data to say how often this happens or whether its increasing or not. And I quoted several border hospital administrators who said that most of the suspected undocumented workers (due of course to their inability to speak english without an accent) are long term residents and not someone who crossed the border to have their children here.

Its entirely possible that this is a problem. But real evidence and information from people running the hospitals is contrary to the assertion. Solving the problem involves securing the borders at hundreds of billions of dollars in cost.

Since we just pissed a lot of money away over in the middle east, can we direct the next trillion or so into something like social security, education or infrastructure?

By the way, one of my best friends 90 year old uncles is pissed to find out that he might be considered an illegal immigrant since he barely speaks english and when he does, with a very strong german accent.

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Originally Posted by Htown Harry

This one, however, really blew me away:

"Overall, any type of immigration is a net positive to Social Security. The more people working and paying into the system, the better," Hinkle said. "It does help the system remain solvent." The Social Security Administration drew from census and Immigration and Customs Enforcement data in 2007 to project the effects of higher and lower immigration patterns. If net immigration is high at 1.3 million people a year, the combined trust fund would be exhausted in 2043. But the fund runs out four years earlier if annual net immigration amounts to about half that — 472,500 legal immigrants and 250,000 illegal immigrants.

Yet another good reason to understand whether there really IS a problem and what the implications of "solving" it might be.

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

And yet there is no reliable data to say how often this happens or whether its increasing or not. And I quoted several border hospital administrators who said that most of the suspected undocumented workers (due of course to their inability to speak english without an accent) are long term residents and not someone who crossed the border to have their children here.

Its entirely possible that this is a problem. But real evidence and information from people running the hospitals is contrary to the assertion. Solving the problem involves securing the borders at hundreds of billions of dollars in cost.

Since we just pissed a lot of money away over in the middle east, can we direct the next trillion or so into something like social security, education or infrastructure?

By the way, one of my best friends 90 year old uncles is pissed to find out that he might be considered an illegal immigrant since he barely speaks english and when he does, with a very strong german accent.

So I should I understand from the above that your position on this subject is that we should really just ignore the issue (if there is one at all)?

(I fail to see what any of this has to do with the Middle East?)

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Just another expensive boondoggle. I think we should only have one of those every ten years or so.

I say we ought to understand the problem and gather some actual data. Then determine appropriate actions, understand the implications, and make sure theres a net positive result to the actions.

Then prioritize it with the rest of the things that need to get done.

I like that a lot better than having a bunch of people who dont like mexicans grab onto some BS data and launch into expensive action against a problem that doesnt exist. Wait, thats starting to sound like that middle east thing again...except for the mexicans part.

Considering we've been unsuccessfully trying for decades to stop the influx of illegal drugs into the country and spent trillions on that miserable failure, I'm pretty sure we'd need to spend another few trillion and a lot of civil rights to "secure the borders" and get rid of illegal aliens. But then again, I dont think its that easy to tell the difference between a US citizen and an illegal immigrant. But you seem comfortable with an analysis that fails for about 30-40% of the population.

I'm not willing to make that trade based on the estimates and assumptions of border state politicians and hospital administrators.

Not when we're fat, undereducated, our roads and bridges are falling apart and our the retirement fund I paid into for 25 years is due to run out of money right about the time I'll be collecting from it.

I say we give texas, arizona, nevada, new mexico and california back to mexico, let them fix all the disintegrating infrastructure, have them try to deport a hundred million suddenly illegal american immigrants, and then we can take it back from them after they're done with the work.

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

.....
I say we ought to understand the problem and gather some actual data.
....

What shall we do to gather this "actual data", send Immigration Agents to the hospitals to question the women. How will they know who to check?

[Notmuchlonger]

Originally Posted by HFWR

The government has the goods on us, including a national ID card (SSN) and a state ID card (driver's license), tax records, property records, and virtually unlimited subpeona/warranted/warrentless access to our phone, financial, and medical records.

Immigrants should get the same happy privilege to be in the "database"...

I think so too. Document whos coming and going .Give them these wonderful things. Follow the rules. Go to work.

God Bless!

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Considering we've been unsuccessfully trying for decades to stop the influx of illegal drugs into the country and spent trillions on that miserable failure,

"trying" - Not really

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

I'm pretty sure we'd need to spend another few trillion and a lot of civil rights to "secure the borders" and get rid of illegal aliens.

Civil Rights? What civil rights are you suggesting the government is violating in their immigration enforcement efforts? Care to elaborate?

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

But then again, I dont think its that easy to tell the difference between a US citizen and an illegal immigrant.

It's a good thing we have professionally trained career immigration agents that do & seem to be pretty successful at it then, huh - since you admit you are clueless as to how that can even be done.

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

But you seem comfortable with an analysis that fails for about 30-40% of the population.

Really now, when did I say that? Projecting your stereotypes on me again?
I'm probably a racist too, huh?

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

I'm not willing to make that trade based on the estimates and assumptions of border state politicians and hospital administrators.

Sure, let's get some facts - facts are good - why don't we just start asking these people about their citizenship - then we'll have better facts - facts are good - I have no problem with facts - I like facts - sometimes to find out the truth of things a little professional inquiry is called for, wouldn't you agree?

Perhaps we could send some government folks who are actually knowledgeable in immigration and nationality law to talk to these patients and find out the facts?

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

Not when we're fat, undereducated, .........

Is that a fact - well, all I can say to that is speak for yourself (if the shoe fits)

[USK Coastie]

Illegal immigration across the southern border is an issue that needs to be solved and soon. Treating illegals as poorly as we do with below minimum age jobs and near slave wage conditions is appalling. The US needs to remove the incentive to cross the border illegally. A double fence along the entire length of the border separated with 1/4 mile mine field between the fences so that it is definitely on American soil with guard towers every 1/4 mile with interlocking fields of machine gun fire should reduce the 'Illegal immigration problem. Next congress needs to develop and pass a comprehensive immigration reform policy that is consistent with the needs of the US.

For those who think this is extreme see what will happen to you if you illegally immigrate to Mexico,

BTW I am married to a naturalized US Citizen who was a LEGAL immigrant.

[Texarkandy]

Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny

I say we give texas, arizona, nevada, new mexico and california back to mexico, let them fix all the disintegrating infrastructure, have them try to deport a hundred million suddenly illegal american immigrants, and then we can take it back from them after they're done with the work.

Then these states will fall under those liberal Mexican immigration laws.

- HUMAN EVENTS

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Originally Posted by Texarkandy

What shall we do to gather this "actual data", send Immigration Agents to the hospitals to question the women. How will they know who to check?

Well see, therein lay the problem. Asking anyone might cause some people to not try to seek needed medical attention...whether they're legal or illegal. Some folks just dont like a lot of questions. So that would inhibit the medical professionals and patients from complying.

You'd also be introducing several constitutionally difficult issues in the process.

I guess my thought processes just work differently. When faced with numerous clearly defined problems effecting large portions of the population and something that may be an issue in some regional areas, when the solutions to the former issues are straightforward and workable while solutions to the latter are complicated and very expensive without clear social or economic benefits and lots of hard to answer questions...I sort of lean towards focus and solution on those clearcut issues.

But then I like Mexicans.